Opinion about Wüsthof Classic Ikon
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I know what the steeling is used for. You are right, the steeling is not used for sharpening but keeping the edge in a fast way. Sorry, because of my English sometimes I am not able to explain my ideas clearly.
I will take a look at the questionnaire. But looking for japanese knives I have been the Tojito f-808, which is not too much expensive and has a good steel.
Thank you.
Thank you. I think that I will keep it finaly. But now I am tempted to buy a japanese knife.
Before buying the Wünsthof I saw the Victorinox Fibrox, and I have read good opinions. I thought about buying it, but finally, I decided the Wüsthof because I think this is a better knife.
Oh my God, 20 knives! Why do you have so many knives? One life is not enough to use all them.
This forum causes temptation
dafox
Senior Member
"This forum causes temptation "
LOL!!!
"LOL!!!
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I think German knives are great for butchery, bones and removing the ends from squash.
The ability to use a steel makes a nice edge for many butchery tasks, and the robust edge won't get ruined in a hard squash
The ability to use a steel makes a nice edge for many butchery tasks, and the robust edge won't get ruined in a hard squash
I must confess I own own 20 Wusthof knives alone. Most of them have been donated to my parents now. The Tojiro is a excellent first j knife choice as well. Your right this forum encourages temptation wonderful temptationI know what the steeling is used for. You are right, the steeling is not used for sharpening but keeping the edge in a fast way. Sorry, because of my English sometimes I am not able to explain my ideas clearly.
I will take a look at the questionnaire. But looking for japanese knives I have been the Tojito f-808, which is not too much expensive and has a good steel.
Thank you.
Thank you. I think that I will keep it finaly. But now I am tempted to buy a japanese knife.
Before buying the Wünsthof I saw the Victorinox Fibrox, and I have read good opinions. I thought about buying it, but finally, I decided the Wüsthof because I think this is a better knife.
Oh my God, 20 knives! Why do you have so many knives? One life is not enough to use all them.
This forum causes temptation
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
Before buying the Wünsthof I saw the Victorinox Fibrox, and I have read good opinions. I thought about buying it, but finally, I decided the Wüsthof because I think this is a better knife.
Oh my God, 20 knives! Why do you have so many knives? One life is not enough to use all them.
This forum causes temptation
You're 100% right... and that probably explains why I have so many knives,,,, totally unnecessary, but nice to have. That said,,, I hadn't bought any knives since the late 1970's. At that time I had a Zwilling Pro-S 10" chef and 10" carving knife, plus a 6" chef/utility knife,, 5.5" boning knife,,,and 10" bread knife, and that was all I needed for the past 40 years or so. I then had an accident and dropped the 6" chef knife, breaking 1 1/2" of blade tip off the knife. My 6" chef/utility knife had now become a 4.5" knife quasi Nakiri.
A year ago, while Christmas shopping, I unexpectedly came across a knife display-case which had a bunch of Victorinox knives, and when I saw the Victorinox Rosewood 6" chef/utility knife, I said to myself "Finally,,, I've found the knife to replace my broken Zwilling 6" knife. At the time, I wasn't expecting that knife to be anything special, but it didn't take long for me to warm right up to that knife,,, and it's since become the handiest knife in my kitchen. I absolutely love the performance and reliability of this knife, and it's incredibly easy to maintain a razor-sharp edge, with zero chipping issues. I also like the feel and warmth of the Rosewood grip.
At that time, I decided to get this same Victorinox Rosewood 6" chef/utility knife as a Christmas gift to my girlfriends' daughter, since she had just moved into her first apartment with no cutlery other than hand-me-downs,,, and I ended up buying 4-5 more knives for her, including a 10" Millenia bread knife from Mercer, which was America's Test Kitchen favourite pick for a bread knife. I also got her a Mercer Renaissance forged paring knife,, an 8" Victorinox Fibrox chef knife,, and a 7" Victorinox Rosewood santoku. I also got her a 10" Idahone ceramic hong rod and a few other goodies, such as Victorinox in-drawer knife storage racks, and a Chef's Choice pull-through sharpener. She's set for life if she takes good care of them.
By the time I finished ordering her knives, I realize I had become somewhat hooked, and started adding a few knives for myself, plus I had renewed my interest in sharpening,,, so, some new stones were in order. I already had four Norton (220/1000/4000/8000) Japanese waterstones for my wood-working shop, plus a King 2-in-1 (400/800 oilstone), and a Tormek, and I've since added ShaptonGlass 320,1000/4000/8000 with the Shapton DiamondGlass Lapping plate, plus a Naniwa Aotoshi GreenBrick of Joy (2k), and a couple of Atoma diamond plates (400 and a 600),,strops 3M films, etc.
As for knives,,, I especially got into looking for the ideal (for me) petty/utility/chef knife, and started buying 4 1/2"-6" knives from different makers,,, mostly German,, Wusthof Classic and Classic-Ikon,,,Zwilling Pro,, but also a few Japanese knives from Shun and Miyabi, as well as a MAC Nakiri. That said, I still reach for the 6" Victorinox most of the time. I've since added a few more Vic's, including 8" and 10" chef's knives and carving knives,,paring knives,,cheese knives,,shears,,,cleavers,,,, it just doesn't stop,,,, but I think I'm done now,,,,,,,almost.
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This forum causes temptation
The cure is to buy more knives. If that doesn't work, then synthetic sharpening stones. If that doesn't work, then natural sharpening stones. If that still doesn't work, you can get into knife making. Good luck!
Am I the only person who can't get a good edge on the Victorinox? I'm hoping someone like Panda will come to my rescue and jump up and down on chromium steels to make me feel less inadequate.
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
The trick with the Vic's is to not let them get dull in the first place. 99% of the time, a gentle honing (read "LIGHT feathering) is all that's needed to return to a razor edge. Vic's steel has a certain silkiness to it... I don't know how to otherwise describe it. I don't feel the brittleness that by comparison, is so common in some of the other German steels.
I wouldn't take too seriously the opinions of those who tend to knock German steels, or, "so-called Chromium steels". Those guys apply their "internet-logic" to denegrate everything that's not considered exotic. Their logic may apply when their trashing $3. Wal-Mart or Dollar-Store knives,,, but the likes of Zwilling, Wusthof, Victorinox didn't make their global reputations by producing junk. There's a lot more to knife manufacturing than steel type.
Which Vic knife are you having trouble with? Also, are you familiar with Peter Nowlan's knife sharpening videos?
Do VERY light edge leading strokes on a 1-2k stone.
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Have sharpened quite a bit of brand new Vics, and did it only on a Chosera 400 (+/-JIS600 as an end result). First thing to do is easing the shoulders. Use the marker trick and a loupe as the factory edge ends at quite high an angle. Deburred with the rough side of a green ScotchBrite. Don't look for any refinement. Steel feels coarser on the stones than the same Krupp's 4116 with Zwilling or Wüsthof.
"This forum causes temptation
LOL!!!
Yes, because there are a lot of opinions, and these opinions suggest some different knives. I like all of them, but I won't buy so much knives.
So, you think german knives are good for rough tasks.
Many temptation are wonderful temptations; kitchen knives, pocket knives, shoes, watches,...
You're 100% right... and that probably explains why I have so many knives,,,, totally unnecessary, but nice to have. That said,,, I hadn't bought any knives since the late 1970's. At that time I had a Zwilling Pro-S 10" chef and 10" carving knife, plus a 6" chef/utility knife,, 5.5" boning knife,,,and 10" bread knife, and that was all I needed for the past 40 years or so. I then had an accident and dropped the 6" chef knife, breaking 1 1/2" of blade tip off the knife. My 6" chef/utility knife had now become a 4.5" knife quasi Nakiri.
A year ago, while Christmas shopping, I unexpectedly came across a knife display-case which had a bunch of Victorinox knives, and when I saw the Victorinox Rosewood 6" chef/utility knife, I said to myself "Finally,,, I've found the knife to replace my broken Zwilling 6" knife. At the time, I wasn't expecting that knife to be anything special, but it didn't take long for me to warm right up to that knife,,, and it's since become the handiest knife in my kitchen. I absolutely love the performance and reliability of this knife, and it's incredibly easy to maintain a razor-sharp edge, with zero chipping issues. I also like the feel and warmth of the Rosewood grip.
At that time, I decided to get this same Victorinox Rosewood 6" chef/utility knife as a Christmas gift to my girlfriends' daughter, since she had just moved into her first apartment with no cutlery other than hand-me-downs,,, and I ended up buying 4-5 more knives for her, including a 10" Millenia bread knife from Mercer, which was America's Test Kitchen favourite pick for a bread knife. I also got her a Mercer Renaissance forged paring knife,, an 8" Victorinox Fibrox chef knife,, and a 7" Victorinox Rosewood santoku. I also got her a 10" Idahone ceramic hong rod and a few other goodies, such as Victorinox in-drawer knife storage racks, and a Chef's Choice pull-through sharpener. She's set for life if she takes good care of them.
By the time I finished ordering her knives, I realize I had become somewhat hooked, and started adding a few knives for myself, plus I had renewed my interest in sharpening,,, so, some new stones were in order. I already had four Norton (220/1000/4000/8000) Japanese waterstones for my wood-working shop, plus a King 2-in-1 (400/800 oilstone), and a Tormek, and I've since added ShaptonGlass 320,1000/4000/8000 with the Shapton DiamondGlass Lapping plate, plus a Naniwa Aotoshi GreenBrick of Joy (2k), and a couple of Atoma diamond plates (400 and a 600),,strops 3M films, etc.
As for knives,,, I especially got into looking for the ideal (for me) petty/utility/chef knife, and started buying 4 1/2"-6" knives from different makers,,, mostly German,, Wusthof Classic and Classic-Ikon,,,Zwilling Pro,, but also a few Japanese knives from Shun and Miyabi, as well as a MAC Nakiri. That said, I still reach for the 6" Victorinox most of the time. I've since added a few more Vic's, including 8" and 10" chef's knives and carving knives,,paring knives,,cheese knives,,shears,,,cleavers,,,, it just doesn't stop,,,, but I think I'm done now,,,,,,,almost.
Yes, they are nice to have. But it means much money spent in them and knives stored instead of being used.
This iis a interesting and funny story. You started buying knives for your girlfriend's daughter and then you realized that you had bought her too much knives and you decided buying more knives for you.
I have a few stones. The best stone I have is a Shapton Kuromaku 1000, and probably I will buy a diamond plate to lapping this stone. What do you think about your King stone? This stone are not expensive and has two grain sizes. I need a coarser stone but I don't want to spend much money in it.
Do you would recommend Victorinox instead of other german and more expensive brand?
I need more money lol.
I will try not to buy much more knives, and buy only the stones that I need. I think it is a pitty to have the things stored in a drawer.
I think that it is possible to get a good edge from any steel with a good stone. Could be your stone the problem?
It is supposed that the steel used by Victorinox is the same used by Wüsthof and Zwilling, but you say that the Victorinox steel is coarser. Is it due to the heat treatment?
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Guess so.
It's definitely different. And I'm not the only one saying it. This "same steel" is really vague. I've heard how all Zwilling made knives are exactly the same, except different handles, but that's not true either.
Which manufacturer do you think treat better this steel?
The same happen with a spanish manufacturer (Arcos). All their knives use a steel registered as Nitrum, but it is supposed than the hardness in the lower range is different than in the higher range.
I have read (but I don't remember where) that Zwilling owns a part of Arcos, and some knives of the low range are made by Arcos.
Does know somebody anything about it?
I know some were made in Spain, but that's about it. Can't tell more. Don't know who exactly makes them there. Always imagined it was just a factory with cheaper labour for Europe.
I think this was my issue. Was looking for something keen, should have been happy with toothy
Bobby2shots
Senior Member
Calostro5,,, That's an interesting question, and there are many ways to answer it. I would struggle however, with the term "INSTEAD of other German knives". Yes, I heartily recommend the Vic's as I see them being one of the truly great values out there today. It's really quite amazing considering that most other German knives are generally far costlier. Mind you, I've yet to get my hands on the Victorinox Grand Maitre series, and those are quite expensive here in Canada.
It's difficult for me to pin down exactly what attracts me about a given knife. My last few knife purchases were more about finding a specific blade-to-handle geometry for my petty/utility knives. On the other hand, some of the Wusthof IKON's I bought, were more about a pull-cut and the type of handle for that purpose. The type of steel was really of very little concern to me when choosing those knives. Two of the petty/utility/prep knives I bought were Zwilling Pro's,,,, a 5'5" straight edge,,, and a 7" straight edge. I very much like both of those knives for prep work. I also tried the 5.5" serrated-blade version of that same knife, and absolutely hated the cut. I immediately returned it. The serrations were a tooth-scallop-scallop-tooth design, and it just felt terrible in the cut,,, sort of tear/bump/bump/tear.
I've bought duds too,,,, well, maybe that's a bit unfair, since I really haven't gotten around to using all of them yet,,,, but one of the Santoku's I bought is a Zwilling Pro Rocking santoku. That knife has wayyy too much curve in my opinion.... but,,, it is a solid sharp knife that typically retails for $225. CDN, and I got it for $69. CDN. I've also got a Wusthof IKON 7" santoku that I much prefer,,,, but I'm not that fond of santoku's to begin with. I bought it because I believed my girlfriend would find it less intimidating than a chef's knife.
You asked me how I like the King stone, and unfortunately it's been so long since I've used it (over 20 years),,, and I was using it to sharpen chisels and hand-plane blades. I don't recall ever using it on a knife,,,, I simply don't recall. I bought a Tormek round about the same time,, and that became my main sharpening system, I had also bought the Norton Japanese waterstone set around the same time, and that was my preferred choice for hand-sharpening. (220/1000/4000/8000)
Now, one thing that you've mentioned is "expensive". Well, the secret there is "be patient". There are always deals out there,,,, and they pop up quite frequently. Get to know the pricing of the knives and stones you're considering,,, then when you see the right price,,, go for it. I know my Canadian pricing inside/out,,, and I can smell a deal like a shark smells blood-in-the-water.
Lastly,,, if you're only out to impress yourself rather than others,,, get to know some of the less expensive offerings that offer truly outstanding performance relative to money spent. They're out there. One that instantly comes to mind is the Mercer Millenia 10" bread knife, which sells for roughly $28. here in Canada. It may look plain, but the cutting performance is exceptional, and the handle feels superb. The Victorinox Fibrox 8" chef knife is another truly outstanding bargain.
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Zwilling knives made in China are milled , others maybe forged.
As far as i know Zwilling produces only in Germay and Japan, all with bolsters are drop forged.
Regards
Uwe
Zwilling developes and makes some stuff in Shanghai. I'm not familiar with the products. All I know is that there is the new development center of the company, China being a huge market.
parbaked
Senior Member
No doubt...it is near impossible to penetrate the China market unless you commit to manufacturing there and all the travails that come with that.
The worst part is that Zwilling will likely be forced to export some percentage of whatever they end up manufacturing in China to ensure the venture generates foreign exchange.
It's the price China make brands pay for the opportunity to participate in their market.
parbaked
Senior Member
Zwilling do a lot more than that, especially if one includes their Henckels brand.
For example, they also makes stamped knives without bolsters.
https://www.zwilling.com/us/zwilling/cutlery/twin-signature/
Zwilling has factories in Spain where they manufacture the Classics line
https://www.zwilling.com/us/henckels-international/cutlery/classic/.
Looks like these are made in China:
https://www.zwilling.com/us/henckel...s-international_cutlery_forged-premio#start=6
These were designed in Italy specifically for the China market:
https://www.zwilling.com.cn/item/ZWA082
https://www.zwilling.com.cn/item/ZWA047
There is a lot going on in the world....
Arcos is the biggest knives manufacturer of Spain. But I don't find information about if Zwilling is the owner of a part of Arcos company.
A knife is the mix of materials, aesthetic, ergonomics, feelings,... Sometimes it is complex to say why do you prefer a knife instead (if this is the right word) of others.
I have bought today a knife that, I would say, it is over Wüsthof Classic Ikon in finish. I am really surprised with it. This knife cost a half of Wüsthof, but it is stamped and the hardness is arround 56 hrc. I hope to create a thread to present it.
I live in Spain, here there are no so many deals, and the prices are usually higher than in USA, at least for the japanise knives. And there is a problem to buy outside of the EU; taxes.
As it can be seen in their webpage, the knives made in Spain are under the trademark Henkels international classic.
https://www.zwilling.com/us/henckels-international/cutlery/classic/
You can see above that under the trademark Henkels some knives are made in Spain.
No problem for me unless the prices in western are the same than if the knives were made in Europe. Some companies manufacture in China, but the prices are like manufacture in Europe.
You found before me the link of the range manufactured in Spain, and some other manufactured outside of Germany.
The thing that throws me off about the Ikon is how handle heavy it is, it just feels so odd in the hand after getting accustomed to the balance point being around pinch grip. I gifted one with a white handle and it had great fit & finish though.
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Exactly. Tall rock-choppers will like it. Handle heaviness impedes other techniques.
The whole knife is heavy (272 gm in the model of 20 cm), and the balance is in the first rivet. I don't like these two details.
Have you removed the ending of the handle?
However, I see in many videos that this knife is very appreciated.
Not sure what you mean, are you talking about sawing off the metal butt, or even more off the handle? I think I'd rather just get a different knife if I didn't like the balance that much.
