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WTS PayPal Friends and Family - beware

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Edge

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All of you know that is not to be used when buying from the members that sale here on the forum.
Be sure to use the invoice or business send. It will cost a bit more to the seller, but you can always add a few $$ to pay the difference or split the difference by upping the price of the item a little bit.

But it has come to the "staff's" attention that at least one seller is encouraging the Friends and Family payment. This is a NO! If anything happens there is NO recourse.
If you do a sale/buy in that manner and it gets screwed up, do not expect anyone to be able to do anything to help you. Be sure to know who you are entering into a transaction with. And you may want to RUN away if they are pushing Friends and Family.
 

jedy617

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Outside of this forum for most of my hobby stuff I have been accepting paypal FF or other payments only. Reason being is in my state if your transactions go over $600 you get a 1099k from paypal which is a hassle to deal with. This is going to be the case for every state in 2022. Also, G&S never protects the seller, it sucks. I've sold things where buyers lie about the item when they receive it, and paypal immediately sides in their favor.

It would be nice to have a threshold, or if you were a supporting member on here and weren't forced to use G&S. Most of the people I know are moving away from it and instead are using zelle/cashapp.
 
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Outside of this forum for most of my hobby stuff I have been accepting paypal FF or other payments only. Reason being is in my state if your transactions go over $600 you get a 1099k from paypal which is a hassle to deal with. This is going to be the case for every state in 2022. Also, G&S never protects the seller, it sucks. I've sold things where buyers lie about the item when they receive it, and paypal immediately sides in their favor.

It would be nice to have a threshold, or if you were a supporting member on here and weren't forced to use G&S. Most of the people I know are moving away from it and instead are using zelle/cashapp.
thanks for pointing out that G&S favors the buyer as it was/is intended to protect private buyers from professional vendors. When both sides are private parties I actually don’t see how the seller should shoulder all the risk. But he does. I’ve had my account frozen multiple times because I received money as a vendor (PP found that suspicious… cause I’m not a vendor after all)…
 

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thanks for pointing out that G&S favors the buyer as it was/is intended to protect private buyers from professional vendors. When both sides are private parties I actually don’t see how the seller should shoulder all the risk. But he does. I’ve had my account frozen multiple times because I received money as a vendor (PP found that suspicious… cause I’m not a vendor after all)…
Paypal also freezes accounts often if you are found to be selling knives, as they are treated as weapons. It sucks. Regardless if it's paypal FF or G&S there should never be any notes in the payment. Hell, Mert Tansu got his paypal account frozen.
 
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Outside of this forum for most of my hobby stuff I have been accepting paypal FF or other payments only. Reason being is in my state if your transactions go over $600 you get a 1099k from paypal which is a hassle to deal with. This is going to be the case for every state in 2022. Also, G&S never protects the seller, it sucks. I've sold things where buyers lie about the item when they receive it, and paypal immediately sides in their favor.

It would be nice to have a threshold, or if you were a supporting member on here and weren't forced to use G&S. Most of the people I know are moving away from it and instead are using zelle/cashapp.
You could also just pay tax on your income? I was a sole proprietor for many years. I think you'll find that if you are regularly selling the same types of items that the IRS will in fact consider you a vendor of said items. Back taxes are no fun for anybody my friend.
 

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You could also just pay tax on your income? I was a sole proprietor for many years. I think you'll find that if you are regularly selling the same types of items that the IRS will in fact consider you a vendor of said items. Back taxes are no fun for anybody my friend.
It’s not income tax avoidance if you sell the knife for what you paid. But it is a hassle to keep all receipts for knife purchases, postage paid, PayPal fees etc then fill out the required tax forms to prove that it’s not income.
What drsmp said. Everything in my hobbies I either take a loss on or break even, but it's such a freaking pain tracking everything, and reporting it all and trying to prove it's not income. Why do that when paypal could shut down my account at any second, and they don't protect me as a seller, only a buyer? Literally no point to using it these days.

99% of us, especially on the forums use paypal to buy/sell stuff as part of the hobby as we rotate stuff in and out of a collection. We aren't businesses. G&S should be kept for businesses only.
 
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What drsmp said. Everything in my hobbies I either take a loss on or break even, but it's such a freaking pain tracking everything, and reporting it all and trying to prove it's not income. Why do that when paypal could shut down my account at any second, and they don't protect me as a seller, only a buyer? Literally no point to using it these days.

99% of us, especially on the forums use paypal to buy/sell stuff as part of the hobby as we rotate stuff in and out of a collection. We aren't businesses. G&S should be kept for businesses only.
The government doesn’t care if you’re making a profit or not. If you’re involved in the frequent buying and selling of particular goods then congratulations, you’re officially a business.

It’s pain to keep track of it for a reason. It’s specifically designed to keep people from engaging in business in this particular fashion. As @drsmp implied, if you properly track your expended, you shouldn’t have to much of a tax burden. But it is the providence of the state to regulate commerce and as such you should probably document it if you do.

The flexibility comes in if you only do a few transactions a year and they are relatively low dollar. After that very clear threshold, you are in business.

I don’t particularly care what you do, I’m just trying to explain that your shallow excuses won’t hold up to an audit in case your luck ever runs out.
 

jedy617

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The government doesn’t care if you’re making a profit or not. If you’re involved in the frequent buying and selling of particular goods then congratulations, you’re officially a business.

It’s pain to keep track of it for a reason. It’s specifically designed to keep people from engaging in business in this particular fashion. As @drsmp implied, if you properly track your expended, you shouldn’t have to much of a tax burden. But it is the providence of the state to regulate commerce and as such you should probably document it if you do.

The flexibility comes in if you only do a few transactions a year and they are relatively low dollar. After that very clear threshold, you are in business.

I don’t particularly care what you do, I’m just trying to explain that your shallow excuses won’t hold up to an audit in case your luck ever runs out.
They are not excuses and they are certainly not shallow. I am not an LLC, I am in no way a business. It's absurd to have to file more taxes if anyone sells over $600 over paypal in a calendar year. Paypal G&S is made for businesses, which is fine. I just choose not to sell accepting that payment because I am not a business. I don't take credit cards either.
 
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They are not excuses and they are certainly not shallow. I am not an LLC, I am in no way a business. It's absurd to have to file more taxes if anyone sells over $600 over paypal in a calendar year. Paypal G&S is made for businesses, which is fine. I just choose not to sell accepting that payment because I am not a business. I don't take credit cards either.
Yeah, you're not an LLC. You're a Sole Proprietor. Feel free to look it up. I can refer you to a tax attorney when you will (likely) eventually need it. 😉
 

jedy617

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Yeah, you're not an LLC. You're a Sole Proprietor. Feel free to look it up. I can refer you to a tax attorney when you will (likely) eventually need it. 😉
I have a tax attorney and already took care of my 1099k from last year. Won't be dealing with one again :)
 
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I have a tax attorney and already took care of my 1099k from last year. Won't be dealing with one again :)
Also 3rd party sites like Paypal and incidentally KKF have a legal requirement to make a good faith effort to ensure that it's members adhere to commerce laws when applicable. Obviously they can't force members to do anything since they don't have any oversight over the transactions themselves. But you can't ask KKF to screw itself so that your "definitely not a business" can save a few bucks.
 

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Also 3rd party sites like Paypal and incidentally KKF have a legal requirement to make a good faith effort to ensure that it's members adhere to commerce laws when applicable. Obviously they can't force members to do anything since they don't have any oversight over the transactions themselves. But you can't ask KKF to screw itself so that your hobby can save a few bucks.
Paying for a product with a paypal FF, Zelle, or cashapp is not against any commerce law. Of course you are still required to pay taxes and file accordingly if you are making profits. I just don't need paypal creating a 1099k for me. But this is all besides the point anyway. It's still a trash platform which only protects buyers, and can freeze your account in an instant if they find out you are buying/selling knives. You think a forum would be in legal trouble if they did not specify what payment programs members are using between themselves for private transactions?? 😂
 
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Paying for a product with a paypal FF, Zelle, or cashapp is not against any commerce law. Of course you are still required to pay taxes and file accordingly if you are making profits. I just don't need paypal creating a 1099k for me. But this is all besides the point anyway. It's still a trash platform which only protects buyers, and can freeze your account in an instant if they find out you are buying/selling knives. You think a forum would be in legal trouble if they did not specify what payment programs members are using between themselves for private transactions?? 😂
Why do you think PayPal started doing G+S to begin with? They were held legally liable for commercial transactions that were facilitated by their platform even when they themselves were neither the buyer nor the seller.

3rd partly platforms are indeed now legally liable when people use their platforms to facilitate commerce.
 
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I would in fact genuinely not be surprised if in the next few years platforms like KKF are included in laws like this: State-by-state guide to marketplace facilitator laws - Avalara

Granted KKF is not Amazon Marketplace, but it would be a difficult argument to try and convince a judge that KKF BST does not facilitate sales. Most likely what will occur is an enforcement by BST Mods of any forum to maintain a transaction threshold. Any amount over the legal limit will probably be forced to report these as commercial transactions. I think we still have a couple years given how slowly the law has caught up to internet sales in other matters, but I think one way or another we'll see some changes in the coming years.
 

jedy617

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Why do you think PayPal started doing G+S to begin with? They were held legally liable for commercial transactions that were facilitated by their platform even when they themselves were neither the buyer nor the seller.

3rd partly platforms are indeed now legally liable when people use their platforms to facilitate commerce.
Comparing a payment processing company and this forum is apples and oranges. Your second part also makes no sense. I would love to see caselaw that held a forum liable for how members conducted business after interacting on their messaging platform. And again, the whole argument is pointless because you can't prove if people still did not pay taxes after taking other payment methods. You honestly think saying "oh well we tell the members to use G&S" would protect KKF?
 
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Paying for a product with a paypal FF, Zelle, or cashapp is not against any commerce law. Of course you are still required to pay taxes and file accordingly if you are making profits. I just don't need paypal creating a 1099k for me. But this is all besides the point anyway. It's still a trash platform which only protects buyers, and can freeze your account in an instant if they find out you are buying/selling knives. You think a forum would be in legal trouble if they did not specify what payment programs members are using between themselves for private transactions?? 😂
I took a break from Japanese food to be a corporate tax compliance officer for a couple of years... so I think I'm pretty well read on this subject.
 

jedy617

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I would in fact genuinely not be surprised if in the next few years platforms like KKF are included in laws like this: State-by-state guide to marketplace facilitator laws - Avalara

Granted KKF is not Amazon Marketplace, but it would be a difficult argument to try and convince a judge that KKF BST does not facilitate sales. Most likely what will occur is an enforcement by BST Mods of any forum to maintain a transaction threshold. Any amount over the legal limit will probably be forced to report these as commercial transactions. I think we still have a couple years given how slowly the law has caught up to internet sales in other matters, but I think one way or another we'll see some changes in the coming years.
" A marketplace facilitator is a business or organization that contracts with third parties to sell goods and services on its platform and facilitates retail sales. " Which is not KKF or other forums.
 
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Comparing a payment processing company and this forum is apples and oranges. Your second part also makes no sense. I would love to see caselaw that held a forum liable for how members conducted business after interacting on their messaging platform. And again, the whole argument is pointless because you can't prove if people still did not pay taxes after taking other payment methods. You honestly think saying "oh well we tell the members to use G&S" would protect KKF?
For right now, yes. But you'd be foolish to think that states will ignore alternative forms of commerce and revenue indefinitely. And when the hammer comes down, having made a good faith effort to ensure that participants are in compliance with clear legal requirements will definitely work in their favor.
 

jedy617

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I took a break from Japanese food to be a corporate tax compliance officer for a couple of years... so I think I'm pretty well read on this subject.
That's great, but again moral of the story is people are obligated to report their taxes correctly. Of course. But no one is obligated to use a certain payment method. All I am saying is I do not like how paypal operates with G&S. I am not talking about avoiding taxes or fees by using other platforms.
 
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That's great, but again moral of the story is people are obligated to report their taxes correctly. Of course. But no one is obligated to use a certain payment method. All I am saying is I do not like how paypal operates with G&S. I am not talking about avoiding taxes or fees by using other platforms.
That's true. Anybody can take whatever form of payment they want. The takeaway I want to leave with this conversation is that just like in Wayfair vs. South Dakota, a company that was following the letter of the law at the time was still held liable because they were evading the proper documentation and payment of taxes. Before they lost the case, there was no legal requirement for them to collect and remit sales tax for transactions to users in states that they do not have nexus in.

Their argument was similar in its ambiguity: they weren't a business in "x" state. They weren't obligated to collect and report taxes for a state that they weren't a business in. You can see how that worked out for them. The overwhelming tide of legal opinions regarding internet commerce is twofold: 1.) that whenever transactions occur, they should still be documented and properly accounted for; and 2.) that third parties are increasingly liable for participants behave using their platform. Even a few years ago it would have seemed absurd that PayPal would be liable for how people used their platform. Why would a platform that only sends currency have to be liable for what people are doing with that money? Sounds silly, right? Now they've implemented G+S to cover their 4$$. I don't think it's a stretch to see how the tide of legal opinions is going to affect even platforms like this down the line. I think KKF is doing a great job and I think their policies make a lot of sense. Even if it's a pain in the ass for sellers, I strongly support KKF's PayPal policy.
 

jedy617

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That's true. Anybody can take whatever form of payment they want. The takeaway I want to leave with this conversation is that just like in Wayfair vs. South Dakota, a company that was following the letter of the law at the time was still held liable because they were evading the proper documentation and payment of taxes. Before they lost the case, there was no legal requirement for them to collect and remit sales tax for transactions to users in states that they do not have nexus in.

Their argument was similar in its ambiguity: they weren't a business in "x" state. They weren't obligated to collect and report taxes for a state that they weren't a business in. You can see how that worked out for them. The overwhelming tide of legal opinions regarding internet commerce is twofold: 1.) that whenever transactions occur, they should still be documented and properly accounted for; and 2.) that third parties are increasingly liable for participants behave using their platform. Even a few years ago it would have seemed absurd that PayPal would be liable for how people used their platform. Why would a platform that only sends currency have to be liable for what people are doing with that money? Sounds silly, right? Now they've implemented G+S to cover their 4$$. I don't think it's a stretch to see how the tide of legal opinions is going to affect even platforms like this down the line. I think KKF is doing a great job and I think their policies make a lot of sense. Even if it's a pain in the ass for sellers, I strongly support KKF's PayPal policy.
While I still disagree on KKF having a rule on G/S, you do have some good points here. It will be interesting to see how policies will change going forward.
 

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Not sure how Angie's note turned into a diatribe about PP practices and what the future may bring.

I'll type slow. The OP shall not require F/F as a condition of a transaction. The end.

Any agreement for payment that is entered into between buyer and seller is between them and them alone. PP, Vemo, Glittering rocks - the forum has no interest.

Should the buyer agree to a FF payment, he does so at his own risk. The dispute rate in BST is very low but it does happen.

If at some time in the future the forum becomes liable for taxation or satisfactory transactions, the forum will likely (in my opinion) get out of the bst business.

Shutting this one down as it's just churning.
 
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