Perma soak naturals

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KO88

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After reading the sell post about tsushima I wonder about my bench sized naguras if Im using em right…

@EricEricEric @refcast and others

I already like my tsushima.
Also have mikawa nagura and Asano Tenjyou (sry for the spelling) nagura. Both are scratchy and more difficult stones to use and always and only with the Dimond plate...
Btw the second one is on the wooden base and the mikawa is not sealed.
 
I bought my mikawa from Login • Instagram it was explained to me that the stone needed to be soaked for a long period of time and then soaked before each use there after

However, if the stone dries out again it would need another longer soak.

I have applied this technique to all of my “harder” type of stones and gained similar results. I would recommend making sure that your stone is sealed

Start with the Tsushima as it’s a very inexpensive stone, seal the mikawa and try that next if everything is going well, also consider that you may have an oxidized layer on top of those stones that nay need to come off

Having stones that are difficult to use is not useful, having useless stones is pointless, so you might as well experiment and see what makes them work best for you

It would be really nice to have a togishi provide some information on how and why they go about soaking their stones
 
A friend of mine is a sword polisher and he soaks all of his nagura before use. He doesn't permasoak them because of space considerations as he got too many stones and soaking them all would need a small swimming pool :).

He once told me that most nagura are just too hard to release enough material without being soaked which softens up the top layers. I also once had a nagura stone and have had similar experiences.

Btw the second one is on the wooden base and the mikawa is not sealed.

Sealing both would be advisable, although I hardly beleive that naguras are prone to cracking, but better be safe than sorry. If you worry about the wood you can either soak the stone upside down with the wood sticking out the water (put pieces of chop sticks under the stone to allow water getting to the surface) or you can simply apply the same sealant to the wood as you do on the stone.
 
About two years ago a retired miyadaiku told me to permanently store my Tsushima in water. He told me to seal it first with epoxy or polyester resin and a thin cloth as varnish only isn't enough and then wait a month or two and it will become softer, muddier and twice as nice to use. The sealing bit was easy because I'm a shipwright and have access to all sorts of resins and then I just let it sit for two months. When I tried it again it was like I was using a different stone. Now I just permanently keep it in water in a separate box at work.
 
A follow up I've put off for a while. I haven't noticed soaking do too much to my Tsushima, but this is the scratch pattern I get on wrought iron Kanna without a diamond plate. I think Tsushima is too hard and slow for kitchen knives unless a diamond plate is used. And it has to be used in a small patch of stone to build slurry, and minimal water
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I have a very hard uchigumori koppa, ive done short soaks on it before. Seemed fine.

Now im thinking i should try giving it a long soak and see how that works for it.
 
I have tried to perma soak my Tsushima because this stone behaves way better that way. 12 hours after soaking it was like playing with another stone! So cool to have a new tactile feedback. So I let it soak permanently..

A week later I opened the lid of my bin and saw a nice big line in the middle and two small ones on the side. Oupsy! It was really well sealed but that didn't prevent it from splitting. Since that day I have been reluctant, but I know that there are people who have had a good result. For the moment I am satisfied with a good bath of about 2 hours before I use it.
 

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I have tried to perms soak my Tsushima because this stone behaves way better that way. 12 hours after soaking it was like playing with another stone! So cool to have a new tactile feedback. So I let it soak permanently..

A week later I opened the lid of my bin and saw a nice big line in the middle and two small ones on the side. Oupsy! It was really well sealed but that didn't prevent it from splitting. Since that day I have been reluctant, but I know that there are people who have had a good result. For the moment I am satisfied with a good bath of about 2 hours before I use it.
Ouch. Thanks for taking one for the team. Now I know never to do this. Glad it's still usable. You'd think that if anything could take permasoaking, a Tsushima could.
 
Ouch. Thanks for taking one for the team. Now I know never to do this. Glad it's still usable. You'd think that if anything could take permasoaking, a Tsushima could.
Since it's not a premium stone I didn't feel bad..ok, juste a little bit 😉

I have no issues using it and I can't feel those crack. I put some tape around it at the moment and I will use burlap and epoxy to solidify everything.

I too thought that if a stone could well withstand soaking it was this one! 💁‍♂️
 
I too am very surprised that it didn’t stand up to the soak :(

Sorry especially since I’m fairly certain I gave you the idea.
No worries Ed, just don't be surprised by the registered letter for the summons to court. 😜

I think you told me about it but I also read on KKF a debate with Otto and other users about soaking the stones. Well, I tried and I got my answer! Still love you 🫶
 
I am on the fence regarding permasoaking and usually avoid it like the plaque. That makes me gravitate towards splash and go, but in the case of Nagura this is not an option.

Do you guys use something to make the water less prone to going bad?
 
The rule is that you don’t soak soft stones, you soak hard stones.

Once a stone is fully hydrated it no longer needs hydration until you use it next and has lost enough water

The secret with Tsushima is to take off a large layer on top and soak until it softens to your desired hardness. Then only hydrate as needed from there.




I have tried to perma soak my Tsushima because this stone behaves way better that way. 12 hours after soaking it was like playing with another stone! So cool to have a new tactile feedback. So I let it soak permanently..

A week later I opened the lid of my bin and saw a nice big line in the middle and two small ones on the side. Oupsy! It was really well sealed but that didn't prevent it from splitting. Since that day I have been reluctant, but I know that there are people who have had a good result. For the moment I am satisfied with a good bath of about 2 hours before I use it.
 
Different kind of stone but i have some kind of shobu "suita" thats black. Extremely hard, like I have an asagi that was a razor stone before i got it and this makes that one seem soft, also a hard specimen of an uchigumori, though that one is still softer than the asagi but just a touch. At least it releases slurry a bit more.

In any case. I decided to seal it and ill try a long soak with this "suita" (i put it in quotations, because it very well could be some kind of suita, but i just have no idea what kind, thats just what it was sold to me as)
 
OK, I'm in for the "soak hard stones" experiment. I have a nice hard green stone I would not grieve to lose (OK, it's because I have 3 of them, and this is the smallest), so I will put it in water and keep checking back.
 
I am on the fence regarding permasoaking and usually avoid it like the plaque. That makes me gravitate towards splash and go, but in the case of Nagura this is not an option.

Do you guys use something to make the water less prone to going bad?
Bleach
 
A little run down from a geo/petrological perspective...

The big no-no when soaking natural stones is trying to do it on stones that are fissile or display noticeable cleavage. The kind of stone that will break into sheets along straight lines, and is a feature mostly associated with metamorphic rocks, like slates. It's a product of lithification (pressure), and heat.

Most jnats are wholly or predominantly sedimentary rather than metamorphic. They can still sometimes be fissile as a result of lithification (like shales) but don't display quite the level of cleavage that slate does. When you see layers in the sides of suita for instance; that isn't fissility, it's the bedding planes of the initial deposits.

Different bedding planes are not an inherently different part of the structure of a stone in the same way that different layers of cleavage are. However they are still different stuff from each other, and different stuff has different properties, porosity, and absorption. This is why you still want to be sealing the sides of jnats, but sealing the bottom doesn't matter at all, and in fact I think could possibly be detrimental on some stones.

In general Japanese stones are going to be more accommodating when it comes to soaking than the majority of historic European honestones, which were very often slates, but there is still obviously a risk.

Jnat soaking guidelines: Don't soak stones that look particularly heterogenous or layered from the side. Don't soak stones with suji or su. Don't soak stones with hairline surface inclusions. Don't soak very heavy stones. Don't soak very fine stones.
 
A little run down from a geo/petrological perspective...

The big no-no when soaking natural stones is trying to do it on stones that are fissile or display noticeable cleavage. The kind of stone that will break into sheets along straight lines, and is a feature mostly associated with metamorphic rocks, like slates. It's a product of lithification (pressure), and heat.

Most jnats are wholly or predominantly sedimentary rather than metamorphic. They can still sometimes be fissile as a result of lithification (like shales) but don't display quite the level of cleavage that slate does. When you see layers in the sides of suita for instance; that isn't fissility, it's the bedding planes of the initial deposits.

Different bedding planes are not an inherently different part of the structure of a stone in the same way that different layers of cleavage are. However they are still different stuff from each other, and different stuff has different properties, porosity, and absorption. This is why you still want to be sealing the sides of jnats, but sealing the bottom doesn't matter at all, and in fact I think could possibly be detrimental on some stones.

In general Japanese stones are going to be more accommodating when it comes to soaking than the majority of historic European honestones, which were very often slates, but there is still obviously a risk.

Jnat soaking guidelines: Don't soak stones that look particularly heterogenous or layered from the side. Don't soak stones with suji or su. Don't soak stones with hairline surface inclusions. Don't soak very heavy stones. Don't soak very fine stones.
I still think noticable cleavage is a good thing.

(Sorry)
 
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