Pizza dough, to poolish or not to poolish

[MarcelNL]

after watching a frantic pizzaiolo (Vito Iacopelli) I'm going to go all the way and will try Poolish this time, issue is...I need dough for like 12 people, a bit much perhaps for a first attempt...anxiety never killed anyone as far as I know.

so..if my math is correct (it hardly is) I'm going to mix 1.5 kg of flour with 1.5 kg of water and preferment that for like 24hrs, then add 370 or so gram of flour to end up with 80% hydratation.

yeast...and salt..dunno, will see what the ambient temperature is, but I reckon some 5g dry yeast and whatever amount of salt at the end ( I typicall use way less salt than most recipes, if I compare it to the original I'd be using plm 2 g of salt per pizza)

Made a nice dough fermenting bin from the bottom of the water softener casing that had its waste incorrectly placed.

will report back

 

[EShin]

Looking forward to hearing how it went as your recipe is quite a lot different from how I’ve been using poolish. I use it as a starter and would usually leave it at least overnight, then make the main dough. So I would probably go for around 500 g flour / 500 g water poolish and then add 1370 g of flour and water as needed, probably around 750 g. You can let it rise for a few hours and then use it, but I’ve had much better results with letting it sit in the fridge for another 24h. But if it works great the way you describe it, it seems much easier.

 

[MarcelNL]

Looking forward to hearing how it went as your recipe is quite a lot different from how I’ve been using poolish. I use it as a starter and would usually leave it at least overnight, then make the main dough. So I would probably go for around 500 g flour / 500 g water poolish and then add 1370 g of flour and water as needed, probably around 750 g. You can let it rise for a few hours and then use it, but I’ve had much better results with letting it sit in the fridge for another 24h. But if it works great the way you describe it, it seems much easier.

I must admit that I don't have a clue what the intent is....whether that is how i understood it; start the dough with mixing equal amounts of flour with the total amount of water and then top up with flour....or start with an equal amount of water and flour like 500:500g and top up to the amount required....the first option just seemed more logical to me, though I might be completely wrong.

 

[ian]

Don't skimp on the salt! Your crust will be bland. Use the recommended percentage, probably ~2% by weight or a little more.

I admit I'm kinda confused by preferments like a poolish. It's important to give your dough enough time to properly ferment: pizza crust that is made all in one day is less flavorful, in my opinion. It's a little more subtle, though, deciding whether to just mix your dough a couple days (or 3-4 days) in advance, or to use a poolish or other preferment. I have made very successful pizza dough just mixing everything together far in advance, and putting the dough in the refrigerator for almost all of the time after that. I suppose one advantage of a poolish is that the fermentation will happen faster at the 100% hydration, and if you haven't added the salt yet. So, it can be a time-saving measure to do it that way. I suppose you're also trying to balance fermentation and gluten development, and I think(?) some of the gluten network can degrade over time, so maybe using a poolish can allow you to I have the benefits of long fermentation while preserving more of the gluten network in the end, since you added in all this new flour? Idk if that's BS though.

 

[Bensbites]

Don't skimp on the salt! Your crust will be bland. Use the recommended percentage, probably ~2% by weight or a little more.

I admit I'm kinda confused by preferments like a poolish. It's important to give your dough enough time to properly ferment: pizza crust that is made all in one day is less flavorful, in my opinion. It's a little more settled, though, deciding whether to just mix your dough a couple days in advance, or to use a poolish or other preferment. I have made very successful pizza dough just mixing everything a couple days (or even three or four days) in advance, and putting the dough in the refrigerator for almost all of the time after that. I suppose one advantage of a poolish is that the fermentation will happen faster at the 100% hydration, and if you haven't added the salt help. So, it can be a time-saving measure to do it that way. I suppose you're also trying to balance fermentation and gluten development, and I think(?) some of the gluten network can degrade over time, so maybe using a poolish can allow you to I have the benefits of long fermentation while preserving more of the gluten at work in the end, since you had it all this new flour? Idk if that's BS though.

I like Vito's recipes. Next time I may give it a longer proof.

Preferment lets you build flavor without sacrificing structure. If you over ferment dough it doesn't rise because you have autolyzed too much. Autolyze will chew up the poly sacharides. I have also seen doughs that rise too long loose their gluten. I am not sure of the exact mechanism of action.

Preferment or 72 he cold proof work great.

 

[tcmx3]

Poolish improves extensibility of dough.

I believe biga is a more popular pre-ferment for pizza. IME it can have slightly better flavor/texture than poolish but it's a real pita to work with in comparison.

You can do Poolish with all of the water but you don't have to. As long as your final hydration works out it's fine.

As @ian said, please please please do not skimp on the salt. Use the amount Vito says. I've looked at his recipes they are very much in line with what youre supposed to use. Not only will it impact flavor but I suspect your fermentation speed will get thrown off. If you want to cut salt, do it with the stuff you put on the pizza IMO. You can just salt the sauce less.

 

[gentiscid]

Try biga instead of poolish

 

[MarcelNL]

thanks guys!


FWIW; salt is only added once the remaining flour is added, so it'll have little effect on the fermenting!

I did some math and agree, it sounded like al lot of salt but it seems allright in the end.

(tried biga and found it a PITA to work it at the completion stage)

 

[ian]

Preferment lets you build flavor without sacrificing structure. If you over ferment dough it doesn't rise because you have autolyzed too much. Autolyze will chew up the poly sacharides.

How do polysaccharides contribute to the rise? Wish I understood all this better.

 

[MarcelNL]

I used to cold proof, but at the current amount I'm looking at I need a dedicated fridge to do that... so preferment it is...

 

[BazookaJoe]

I've been using this recipe lately. Pretty easy, though I use a stand mixer instead of hand kneading/folding.

 

[MarcelNL]

looks good, though I never understand folks not using a grate to prevent the bottom from going soggy ;-)

 

[ian]

Grate? Does that help? I think that if you get a soggy bottom, it means the surface you’re cooking your pizza on was not hot enough.

 

[tcmx3]

I think neapolitan pizza probably shouldnt sit. same as sushi.

it's not a crispy pizza style

 

[MarcelNL]

the difference between letting it sit on a board while eating versus letting it sit on a grate is quite large...unless the crowd is large and all pieces are snatched up instantaneously.

 

[ian]

Oh, sorry I thought you meant cooking it on some sort of grate. I usually put my pizzas on a cooling rack too.

 

[MarcelNL]

so the plan changed slightly, I probably misunderstood the poolish concept and it's not needed to start with total water and equal flour...right now the first step is 600g water with 600g flour and yeast waiting for the hour at room temp to complete before going into the fridge for the first ferment, tomorrow evening I'll do the second ferment step.

PM; at 440'C and higher the Biscotto surface of the oven for sure is hot enough ;-)
That Biscotto is the next best thing after sliced bread! (used to mess around with THICK corderite but that somehow never really sang)

 

[MarcelNL]

I find this one great too, he makes it look soo easy..

 

[BazookaJoe]

looks good, though I never understand folks not using a grate to prevent the bottom from going soggy ;-)

The pizza is cut on the wooden board, then on to a grate for serving... though for a small 12" pie, it doesn't sit for long with a crew of 4.

 

[EShin]

Don't skimp on the salt! Your crust will be bland. Use the recommended percentage, probably ~2% by weight or a little more.

I admit I'm kinda confused by preferments like a poolish. It's important to give your dough enough time to properly ferment: pizza crust that is made all in one day is less flavorful, in my opinion. It's a little more subtle, though, deciding whether to just mix your dough a couple days (or 3-4 days) in advance, or to use a poolish or other preferment. I have made very successful pizza dough just mixing everything together far in advance, and putting the dough in the refrigerator for almost all of the time after that. I suppose one advantage of a poolish is that the fermentation will happen faster at the 100% hydration, and if you haven't added the salt yet. So, it can be a time-saving measure to do it that way. I suppose you're also trying to balance fermentation and gluten development, and I think(?) some of the gluten network can degrade over time, so maybe using a poolish can allow you to I have the benefits of long fermentation while preserving more of the gluten network in the end, since you added in all this new flour? Idk if that's BS though.

Yes, you have it exactly right as far as I understand it. Balancing fermentation and gluten development can be very difficult as protein quality varies hugely with wheat varieties but also with climates, soils etc. and does not strictly correlate with protein quantity. There is some variation with each batch of flour even of the same brand, so you’d have to adjust the kneading and fermentation time with every time you buy flour. Using a preferment gives you the advantages of prolonged fermentation while minimizing the risk of having the gluten network breaking down, which is especially tricky if you use spelt flour or so. Another big factor is that it saves a lot of fridge space.

so the plan changed slightly, I probably misunderstood the poolish concept and it's not needed to start with total water and equal flour...right now the first step is 600g water with 600g flour and yeast waiting for the hour at room temp to complete before going into the fridge for the first ferment, tomorrow evening I'll do the second ferment step.

PM; at 440'C and higher the Biscotto surface of the oven for sure is hot enough ;-)
That Biscotto is the next best thing after sliced bread! (used to mess around with THICK corderite but that somehow never really sang)

That sounds right now! Good luck and still looking forward to hearing how it went.

 

[MarcelNL]

Spelt, hmmm I've never been able to make anything worthwhile out of it.
A good while ago someone who is baking his own spelt bread for decades made a pizza dough and baked in one of the two electric pizza ovens we loaned him, it took like 10 bakes to get rid of the residue on the bottom...sure enough he used olive oil on the other electric pizza oven as 'non stick' precaution, you wouldn't believe the mess that made unless you saw it...I ended up replacing the stone.

 

[mengwong]

If you over ferment dough it doesn't rise because you have autolyzed too much. Autolyze will chew up the poly sacharides. I have also seen doughs that rise too long loose their gluten. I am not sure of the exact mechanism of action.

Coincidentally I was researching Injera which likewise runs over multiple stages.

Injera (update #7 - [as of 7/30/22] includes modified batter formulation and a few process tweaks)

Since this is a process of discovery more than an exposition of well understood science, the update number in the title will change when enough significant changes have accumulated that you might want to re-read from the top. At some point it will stabilize but in the beginning it is somewhat...

www.thefreshloaf.com

I'm excited to share this even though it's not 100% aimed at the original discussion because some of the theory may carry over – watching this expert think through a new flour/recipe/cuisine from first principles was a treat that I think this thread would appreciate.

 

[rickbern]

I find this one great too, he makes it look soo easy..

I love to slap & fold!

Makes great dough and it’s tons of fun. He has a biga dough for focaccia that I used often

 

[Lars]

I make buns with a biga all the time, but never made pizza with a preferment. So I made a poolish today and stuck it in the fridge. Will make a dough for pizza tomorrow and hopefully it will be pizza time on Sunday. Thanks for the inspiration guys..!

 

[MarcelNL]

I'm going to do the second stage ferment later tonight, aiming to do a final dough balls tomorrow afternoon...I'm lusting for those gargantuan puffy air bladders....

 

[Bensbites]

How do polysaccharides contribute to the rise? Wish I understood all this better.

They don't really. They make up the carbohydrates in flour. Hydrolysed carbohydrates (sugars) combine with other compounds like, but not limited to proteins, to give you the complex flavors you find in slow rise breads

 

[MarcelNL]

so far so good, the slap and fold is easier than I thought, I can already see why my dough was subpar until now (I hope)...not enough/incorrect building the gluten

 

[ian]

Spelt, hmmm I've never been able to make anything worthwhile out of it.

Really love spelt flour for bread. Usually do 50/50 with whole grain spelt and white bread flour.

 

[MarcelNL]

Really love spelt flour for bread. Usually do 50/50 with whole grain spelt and white bread flour.

I love spelt bread made by someone who can ;-)

 

[MarcelNL]

results....a mixed bag, taste was great but puffiness not what I expected but i am thinking that ambient temperature is the key factor there...it took like an hour and a half for the dough to get anywhere near room temperature after taking it out of the fridge (4'C)

it's a start..of the 12 pizze 2 got stuck, and one burned as I got carried away with doing something else...it's clear that longer preheating is key, and ergonomics are vital....walking around with a pizza on a peel is NOT something I'm ever doing again...
The oven needs to be placed higher, and prepping should be done close to it.