POLL: How much is a Jiro Nakagawa gyuto worth to you?

[Sharpchef]

Well i do not see any hate here, but different opinions about quality/price.

Delamaination is a fault, no matter from which maker, gaps in the handle work on full tang also.

Would you by a new car with a big scratch in the paintjob or a crack in the windshield for the full price?

Regards

Uwe

The question should be:

Would you like to buy a car for the price of an Porsche and the optic of an Trabant without knowledge about performance ?

But this is no question! Some guys are so "stupid" (sorry....) and do so.

Greets Sebastian.

 

[HRC_64]

You realize I pulled at least one of those from a Japanese retailer right?

...my sticking point is not that people are critiquing him (I am as well and did in a recent post), but that so much emphasis is being placed on things that really don't even matter to the performance of the knife.

You realize that Kitaji pattern was invented to maximize "geometric stability" right?
And that having a cracked laminate is counter-thetical to geomertic stability, right?

Its not like Shigefusa wasn't awarded a patent for this innovation,
and that this innovation is what made his knives sought after in he east,
and later collectors objects in the west?

I mean, we all know this basic history...??




Or maybe someone can correct me?

 

[Corradobrit1]

if you think that other craftsmen in japan arent all using power hammers, you should be prepared to be very surprised

Under no illusions here. Just pointing out that the Jiro brand extolling their traditional, handmade, artisanal credentials as presented on IG is a little disingenuous.

 

[Corradobrit1]

You realize that Kitaji pattern was invented to maximize "geometric stability" right?
And that having a cracked laminate is counter-thetical to geomertic stability, right?

Its not like Shigefusa wasn't awarded a patent for this innovation,
and that this innovation is what made his knives sought after in he east,
and later collectors objects in the west?

I mean, we all know this basic history...??

I did not know that

 

[Sharpchef]

You realize that Kitaji pattern was invented to maximize "geometric stability" right?
And that having a cracked laminate is counter-thetical to geomertic stability, right?

Its not like Shigefusa wasn't awarded a patent for this innovation,
and that this innovation is what made his knives sought after in he east,
and later collectors objects in the west?

I mean, we all know this basic history...??




Or maybe someone can correct me?

I don`t get this joke, can you explain ?

Greets SEbastian.

 

[Barclid]

You realize that Kitaji pattern was invented to maximize "geometric stability" right?
And that having a cracked laminate is counter-thetical to geomertic stability, right?

Its not like Shigefusa wasn't awarded a patent for this innovation,
and that this innovation is what made his knives sought after in he east,
and later collectors objects in the west?

I mean, we all know this basic history...??




Or maybe someone can correct me?

Yeah you're gonna have to cite a source for the "geometric stability" aspect of that patent bud.

 

[McMan]

FWIW @ojisan mentioned this in another thread, and includes the patent number.

My nakiri is sumiganashi, and has a sticker that says “墨流し(R) PAT. 973389. ” (墨流し is Suminagashi). This patent number refers the original patent of the suminagashi cladding technology in Japan submitted in 1973 by Iiduka-san (Shigefusa), his master and a sword smith Nagashima-san, the 1000-year-nail smith Sirataka-san, and Kato-san of the former president and the current chairman of Kiya (Kiya and Shigefusa has another long story to tell…).

 

[Corradobrit1]

Yeah you're gonna have to cite a source for the "geometric stability" aspect of that patent bud.

Here you go. Would need to pull original patent to understand on what basis the patent was awarded

Ojisan stated
My nakiri is sumiganashi, and has a sticker that says “墨流し(R) PAT. 973389. ” (墨流し is Suminagashi). This patent number refers the original patent of the suminagashi cladding technology in Japan submitted in 1973 by Iiduka-san (Shigefusa), his master and a sword smith Nagashima-san, the 1000-year-nail smith Sirataka-san, and Kato-san of the former president and the current chairman of Kiya (Kiya and Shigefusa has another long story to tell…). So Hirotomo got licensed to produce sumiganashi knives from those patent holders, meaning Hirotomo had some relationship with Shigefusa as well.

 

[Corradobrit1]

I guess Jiro designed the delamination into the Deba from the getgo. If anyone goes to this shindig please ask. So NOT sold?

 

[Barclid]

lol

Seen that. But have you actually read it?

As far as I can understand, they're claiming improvements on shock absorption, sharpenability and edge retention versus Western knives. Basically, extolling the virtues of their invention so as to be able to patent it and prove it sufficiently unique and innovative, same as any patent applicant should.

Also worth noting is the patent is long expired, since 1996.

 

[McMan]

If you really want to dig and/or can read Japanese...
Go to https://www.j-platpat.inpit.go.jp/ and punch in 973389.
It shows the patent history and filing. It was initially applied for in 1973, refused, then granted in 1979. That's as far as I can get, not reading Japanese and all...

 

[Barclid]

Here, I'll upload the original patent application for you guys and you have a crack at translating it. Way too esoteric for me.

 

[HRC_64]

Here, I'll upload the original patent application for you guys and you have a crack at translating it. Way too esoteric for me.

Seen that. But have you actually read it?

LMAO.

 

[Barclid]

If you really want to dig and/or can read Japanese...
Go to https://www.j-platpat.inpit.go.jp/ and punch in 973389.
It shows the patent history and filing. It was initially applied for in 1973, refused, then granted in 1979. That's as far as I can get, not reading Japanese and all...

My point wasn't that I don't think it's patented but that I don't think we should be making flippant statements about expired patents being specifically about one thing (geometric stability) without proper assessment of the source. As far as I can tell, that's just one aspect of it but my Japanese comprehension is far, far from advanced enough for what they're saying here. @ojisan probably read it before, maybe he's willing to try.

 

[suntravel]

As far as I can understand, they're claiming improvements on shock absorption, sharpenability and edge retention versus Western knives. Basically, extolling the virtues of their invention so as to be able to patent it and prove it sufficiently unique and innovative, same as any patent applicant should.

Its Shirogami

No problem to outperform this with modern western steels and modern forging/HT

Also a Sukenari HAP40 is an other world regarding performance of the edge.

Regards

Uwe

 

[HRC_64]

My point wasn't that I don't think it's patented but that I don't think we should be making flippant statements about expired patents being specifically about one thing (geometric stability) without proper assessment of the source. As far as I can tell, that's just one aspect of it but my Japanese comprehension is far, far from advanced enough for what they're saying here. @ojisan probably read it before, maybe he's willing to try.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this level of ignorance...

 

[Barclid]

LMAO.

Given your non-answer, that's a no.

 

[Barclid]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this level of ignorance...

Give us your best crack at a complete translation. I'd love to hear your full understanding since you're using it as source material for an argument you must have a really solid grasp of it.

 

[HRC_64]

Give us your best crack at a complete translation. I'd love to hear your full understanding since you're using it as source material for an argument you must have a really solid grasp of it.

Sure... Q&A with Iizuka san

"The biggest concern for clad knife was the bending after years because of different stress of jigane and hagane for single bevel knife. Honyaki solves this but it has also many inferior characteristics. One is difficult to sharpen. Other is the failure rate at heat treatment if you want the steel hard. I solved the problem making kitaeji clad. Kitaeji is a mixture of layers of carbon steel and very soft steel. Because it contain carbon steel the stress is lower and does not bend after years. It is also very easy to sharpen because it has very soft steel."

 

[Matus]

I think this thread is well past its bed time as all that is left is insults and personal attacks. Move on guys.