Possibly end of an era..... Kiyoshi Kato Retired

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DitmasPork said:
Are TF Denkas the poor man’s Kato?
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enrico l said:
At some point, you can’t actually be believing what you are saying.
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I believe. However, while $2.461.60 is eye opening and too steep for my humble wallet—if that Kato sells, then it's a fair price supported by the market, a win-win for JNS and buyer.

The lofty price of $2.461.60 for a 210 Kato, w1, is a good thing in the long run. It raises the price ceiling, making it inviting for more makers to elevate prices so they'll have an easier time making a living, in addition to benefiting vendors and private sellers. It also would make the knife making craft more attractive endeavor for people to enter the field of knife making. I quick brows through Eating Tools—there's a 205mm gyuto by a young American maker for $3750.

I really feel that this is the best time to buy chef's knives—the market is incredibly diverse, with heaps of quality knives offered on both the high and low end.

The same arguments about knife prices are the same with restaurants. One can get a superb Canto meal in NYC for $7.00—or spend $700.00 (wine not included) at JÔNT in DC. The high end inspires eaters and employs cooks, develops/feeds connoisseurship, paves the way for more to follow suit.

TBH, I don't know what Kato-san's cut it, but that's none of my business.
 
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I’m not even trying to get all involved in this Kato talk.

But @DitmasPork, you seem to be a very vocal endorser of Kato’s at any price. All this talk of “market price” is just misleading as the cohort of this type of collecting is so small. You end up dragging people into this group who would have no interest but are enticed by these public endorsements. If someone wants to buy it, cool do what make you happy. But I get major Ryky vibes from this thread. Probably time for me to stop looking at it.
 
enrico l said:
I’m not even trying to get all involved in this Kato talk.

But @DitmasPork, you seem to be a very vocal endorser of Kato’s at any price. All this talk of “market price” is just misleading as the cohort of this type of collecting is so small. You end up dragging people into this group who would have no interest but are enticed by these public endorsements. If someone wants to buy it, cool do what make you happy. But I get major Ryky vibes from this thread. Probably time for me to stop looking at it.
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I think Kato at this price is ridiculous, but it sold, so someone wanted it. I disagree that you can drag someone into buying something like that by voicing an opinion that the price is fair or not fair. If a person is not interested in something like this and is dragged into spending this much on a knife without research and purely by public endorsement like this then that person clearly has enough money to spend on this and not feel it. Still a win for all parties involved. There is no victim here and no need to censor anyone's opinion for or against.
 
Barmoley said:
I think Kato at this price is ridiculous, but it sold, so someone wanted it. I disagree that you can drag someone into buying something like that by voicing an opinion that the price is fair or not fair. If a person is not interested in something like this and is dragged into spending this much on a knife without research and purely by public endorsement like this then that person clearly has enough money to spend on this and not feel it. Still a win for all parties involved. There is no victim here and no need to censor anyone's opinion for or against.
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I never claim anyone is a victim and did not want to make it seem that way. But you’d be surprised how heavily people weigh other’s opinions on this site. When I first got here I strongly referred to what long-standing members had discussions about, and I value their knowledge. If you were on the fence about buying one or not, it may tip the scales. There should be reasoning on why you are endorsing it, not just “market value”. When 1 person is pretty much setting that value.

I hope everyone who buys Kato’s now are happy with them. I do not wish to deter anyone as well.

Also, most people put this stuff on their credit cards and deal with it later.
 
Jovidah said:
The only thing exorbitant prices are good for is elitist gatekeeping. It doesn't inspire or encourage, it excludes.
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Why would higher ceiling on the high end knives not encourage more makers to come into the market? This is exactly what has been happening. For example, Kramer and his success has clearly encouraged others to start making custom kitchen knives. Many knife makers that used to make folders and outdoor knives transitioned into kitchen knives because it was lucrative due to high demand and high enough prices to make it worth their time. Same happened in other knife sectors as well. When higher end, more expensive customs arrived more makers entered into the market at different price levels. It is good for everyone to have more makers at different price levels and higher potential of making money making knives.
 
Jovidah said:
The only thing exorbitant prices are good for is elitist gatekeeping. It doesn't inspire or encourage, it excludes.
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IMHO, buying knives is rather egalitarian, the opposite of 'elitist gatekeeping.' Based on my experiences, the gate is always for knife buying—vendors usually happy to sell a knife no matter who you are, just need your credit card handy and buy any chef's knife from a website or vendor. To see 'elitist gatekeeping,' try getting a reservation at some of the NYC restaurants, or watch who gets past the velvet rope at a trendy nightclub. I can assure you that Maxim won't look you over when you click on 'check out' for the Kato.
 
enrico l said:
I never claim anyone is a victim and did not want to make it seem that way. But you’d be surprised how heavily people weigh other’s opinions on this site. When I first got here I strongly referred to what long-standing members had discussions about, and I value their knowledge. If you were on the fence about buying one or not, it may tip the scales. There should be reasoning on why you are endorsing it, not just “market value”. When 1 person is pretty much setting that value.

I hope everyone who buys Kato’s now are happy with them. I do not wish to deter anyone as well.

Also, most people put this stuff on their credit cards and deal with it later.
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I understand where you are coming from and I sympathize as your concerns clearly come from a good place. That said, the seller doesn't set the price, the buyers do. If the price is too high it won't sell. If it sells the price is fair by definition. If you are on the fence of spending $2500 on a kitchen knife and you were pushed over by an opinion of anyone here then you could spend this money and not be affected in the process. These are not essential goods, you can't treat them as such and can't apply the logic of prices for essential goods to these.
 
enrico l said:
...There should be reasoning on why you are endorsing it, not just “market value”...
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I think you are overblowing or taking what he said out of context. All he said was "...if that Kato sells, then it's a fair price supported by the market..."
And agree with it or not, it is the truth. If it sells quickly at that price, which it did, then it's a fair price. There are lots of knives out there that sell for much more than I would pay for them but the prices are fair or they would just sit there.
 
Unless I’m not understanding, the knife is still available and has not sold. I do believe it will sell though.
 
ZeeVee said:
My understanding from their insta post is that there are several being released individually over the course of the next couple of days...
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Yeah I get that. But the one that was posted today is still not sold…..yet
 
Context to the comments I've made. Not intending to kick the hornets nest.
1] I've already landed a 240 Kato, bought new when they were $500—happy to see the valuation soar, since about 90% of my other knives have devalued significantly. Kato's a maker who I love and respect, digging the aura that's developed around his work.
2] Friends of mine collect Katos and other pricey J-knives, so I'm supportive of their obsession, and not about to rain on their parade.
3] It's my belief that anyone sniffing around a $2k knife either knows what they’re doing, or has enough expendable income to play—both are valid buyers.
 
enrico l said:
Yeah I get that. But the one that was posted today is still not sold…..yet
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It showed sold at one point, so it is not clear if the one not sold is the same one or not. Either someone backed out or the one not sold is a different knife. There are supposed to be multiples.
 
Barmoley said:
It showed sold at one point, so it is not clear if the one not sold is the same one or not. Either someone backed out or the one not sold is a different knife. There are supposed to be multiples.
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He said he was listing 1 today and 1 tomorrow. It may of just be a website hiccup showing sold. His stuff usually preloads as sold out. Not sure what happened
 
DitmasPork said:
IMHO, buying knives is rather egalitarian, the opposite of 'elitist gatekeeping.' Based on my experiences, the gate is always for knife buying—vendors usually happy to sell a knife no matter who you are, just need your credit card handy and buy any chef's knife from a website or vendor. To see 'elitist gatekeeping,' try getting a reservation at some of the NYC restaurants, or watch who gets past the velvet rope at a trendy nightclub. I can assure you that Maxim won't look you over when you click on 'check out' for the Kato.
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I don't want to claim to be certain what @Jovidah meant but I think you guys have different definition of elitist gatekeeping. He didn't say buying knives was elitist gatekeeping. There are knives for any price you wanna pay. But raising prices to exhorbitant amount makes less and less people able to afford them. If you look at Kato's knives now, only a very few "elites" can now afford them while it wasn't the case a few years ago. It's like gentrification, raise the price on a rent of a neighborhood and soon there will only be rich people living there. That's elitist gatekeeping. I'm not saying it's good or bad or whether the prices are justified or not, just that very high prices make something only affordable to very very few people called "elites" (for some reason).
 
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