Powdered Steel Gyuto: Takamura, Sakon, Yahiko, Kohetsu

[Jeff Giblin]

I've been researching my next chef's knife purchase the past few months, and am definitely leaning towards the various Powder Metallurgy / PM / Powdered Steel / R-2 / SG2 / HSPS / HAP40 options due to the lightweight blade and high edge retention. I'm a home chef, been cooking more seriously the past year and in need of an upgrade. Here is the questionnaire:

LOCATION
What country are you in?
United States

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Chef's Knife

Are you right or left handed?
Right Handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Western Handle

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
8-9 inches

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
Yes, at least stainless clad

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
$300 USD (and another $150 for sharpening tools)

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Mostly vegetables - Slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables. Occasionally slicing meats.

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Kitchenaid 8" Chef Knife (on its last legs)

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch Grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Push-Cut and Chop

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
I do enjoy aesthetics, though do not need a Damascus pattern. I do enjoy seeing the uneven core layer protruding from the stainless cladding. Red handles (i.e. mahogany / rosewood) are gorgeous, though not a dealbreaker if the handle is black or dark.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
More comfortable handle, better balance

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
Easier push cutting motion. Less reactivity with food - would prefer a stainless cladding.

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
Definitely better edge retention.

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Yes, End-Grain wood

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
No

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes

SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
My research has led me to several different options - curious to hear your thoughts on them, especially if you've used any of them:

Takamura HSPS Gyuto Knife 210mm (8.2") (red handle)
https://www.mtckitchen.com/takamura-hsps-gyuto-knife-210mm-8-2/
I'm a bit of a sucker for the lovely red handle, though I've heard the this Takamura might be especially flexible - has anyone experienced that?

Takamura HSPS Pro Gyuto Knife 210mm (8.2") (Black handle)
https://www.mtckitchen.com/takamura-hsps-pro-gyuto-knife-210mm-8-2/
I'm especially curious to hear thoughts on the Pro (black handle) vs standard (red handle) in terms of performance and durability. Is the Pro / black handle option as flexible as the red handle?

Sakon Ryuga Powdered Steel Gyuto Knife 210mm (8.2")
https://www.mtckitchen.com/sakon-ryuga-powdered-steel-gyuto-knife-210mm-8-2
The team at MTC Kitchen highly recommended the Sakon Ryuga when I reached out about the Takamura. They said Sakon is for "chefs looking for a good quality Japan-made knife without a well-known brand." Have to admit I've very intrigued, but I can find almost no info or reviews about these knives online.

Yahiko R-2 Stainless Gyuto 210mm
https://www.**************.com/yar2stgy21.html
I've seen the "winks" that these are the same as the "Tojiro Pro R-2 Stainless Gyuto 210mm", which is intriguing as well.

Kohetsu HAP40 Western Gyuto 210mm
https://www.**************.com/kohagy21.html
Once again in love with the reddish color of the handle!

Very curious to hear your thoughts, thanks!

 

[Nemo]

I understand the urge to buy a PM steel knife when you don't know how to sharpen. It makes you feel that you'll have excellent edge retention, so you won't have to sharpen/ get it sharpened as often.

Whilst PM steels are usually not as difficult to sharpen as many stainless steels, I would argue that you will get better at sharpening faster with a carbon steel blade. It will be easier to sharpen and you'll feel more confident sharpening more quickly. Not to mention that you'll get more practice. Semistainles steels are mostly almost as easy to sharpen as carbon steel and for practical purposes have most of the stain resitance of stainless steels.

If you still want a PM knife, look at Gesshin Kagero, Akifusa, Ryusen Blazen/ SG2 and Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminagashi. I can go into the differnces between them if you like. I'm intersted in the Kurosaki SG2 but haven't pulled the trigger yet. If it cuts anything like his AS knives, it will be a very nice knife.

If you want to look int carbon or semistainless options, ask away.

 

[Jeff Giblin]

I have to admit, carbon blades intimidate me - I have a perception that carbon knives will rust the second I look away. Do you have a modem or brand I should look into? What is the actual reality of using a carbon blade like?

Thank you for your other PM suggestions as well! Would be happy to hear about their strengths, and why you suggested them. The Gesshin Kagero looks a lot like the Sakon Ryuga (and specs are almost identical), which makes me wonder if Sakon is the EOM for the Gesshin as well.

What is an example of the "semistainless" blades you mentioned? How are they constructed?

 

[merlijny2k]

Plusses to going carbon:
Sharpens super easy
Interesting to watch the patina develop. Sometimes I take one off just to watch it again.
You learn to wash, dry and store your knives when you are done with them. That is a really good custom with very sharp objects regardless of whether they rust or not. The rust is just the feedback mechanism. Nothing to worry about though. Takes a minute to remove if you forgot. Wouldn't even list it as a con.

Minusses:
Can give off a tiny bit of black color to food if the patina isn't very stable yet.

Don't like the smell when cutting pinapples.

In any case owning a carbon is special. You can show it to people and tell them about it and it is immediately obvious you have a sifferent breed of knife than they have at home, sharpening makes your day everytime. Carbon isn't for everybody but given that you bothered researching your next knife as opposed to getting one at the closest department store means it probably is for you.

 

[Xenif]

I second everything said about carbon so far. For easier maintenance make sure the cladding in stainless, that will cut down on the amount of maintenance vs iron clad or monosteel carbon knives, as only the core steel will react. Although carbon can be intimidating, its also a great tool to learn proper respect for the tools, and you will learn to wipe down way more often.

As for Semi-Stainles steel, they come in diffrent reactivity, from Ginsanko and SLD which are very stain resistant to things like SKD or Heiji secret stainless, those will tarnish but are rust resistant.

Just realized you are from LA ... Maybe make a trip down to Japanese Knife Import to talk to Jon.

 

[Nemo]

I have to admit, carbon blades intimidate me - I have a perception that carbon knives will rust the second I look away. Do you have a modem or brand I should look into? What is the actual reality of using a carbon blade like?

Thank you for your other PM suggestions as well! Would be happy to hear about their strengths, and why you suggested them. The Gesshin Kagero looks a lot like the Sakon Ryuga (and specs are almost identical), which makes me wonder if Sakon is the EOM for the Gesshin as well.

What is an example of the "semistainless" blades you mentioned? How are they constructed?

No need to be intimidated by carbon. They will rust if you leave them wet for a few hours, but not if you wash and dry them straight after prep. I rinse and dry after acidic food as well. I think that many pro chefs have a towel that they wipe the knife down with. Carbon steel will patina with use, especially after contact with acidic food. The patina can be quite pretty and is somewhat protective against rust. If it's any indication, I use carbon steel knives much more than stainless nowadays.

I have an Akifusa (my first good knife). The steel is relitavely easy to sharpen (on Choseras, FWIW) but not as easy as any carbon steel. Edge retention is very long. The cladding is super soft and scratches very easily. The spine and choil are downright sharp- not eased at all- I keep meaning to fix that. The pakkawood (a type of synthetic wood) western handle fits the bolster well. It's a moderatly thin knife, with so-so food release, but it was a revelation to me (compared to the knives that I had been using up until then).

It's best to not make assumptions about OEMs, because they end up being incorrect as often as not.

JKI's Kagero is the same steel, with a very similar profile and thickness. The example I have handled was rehandled (so I am unsure whether or not it had aftermarket blade work) but the blade face, spine and choil on that example were much better finished than the Akifusa. I can't comment on the sharpenability or edge retention of the steel but I can say that I would be astounded if JKI gave its name to anything that didn't stack up.

I had a Ryusen Blazen. I gifted it and I often miss it. It has the most beautiful balance in the hand. Quite thin behind the edge, with better food release than Akifusa. Beautifully finished blade, spine, choil and (western pakkawood) handle. The cladding is not as soft as Akifusa. The R2 steel also pretty easy to sharpen and has very good edge retention (it's reputed as less long than SRS15 but in my home use, I honestly couldn't say that it was very different).

The Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminagashi is a taller R2 blade, with a subtle damascus cladding. Edge retention is very long. The spine and choil are eased but not rounded. It has an octagonal rosewood handle (perfectly serviceable but nothing special). An upgaded version (Shinko Kurokumo) with a nicer (ebony) handle and a well rounded spine and choil is available at KnS. This middleweight blade is fairly thin behind the edge (maybe slightly less so than Blazen) but the blade face has a reasonable amount of convexity and food release is fairly good.

I'm very tempted to try the Kurosaki R2. I have one of his AS blades, which is a great thinner (but not laser) knife.

Some great semistainless blades include Yoshikane SKD, Gesshin Gengetsu Semistainless and Initomonn (unfortunately no longer available), My Yoshikane is a thicker knife (with excellent food release) but apparently there are thinner versions available (expect the food release on these to be not as good). The Gesshin Gengetsu is a thin middleweight with a trick grind which allows it to have better food release than a knife this thin should have. Both are easy to sharpen and have fairly good edge retention. Both are clad in stainless steel.

There are lots of stainless clad carbons. It's hard to go past Tanaka Najishi (Available in carbon blue2 and also stainless Ginsanko). I also like Kurosaki's Aogami Super knives.

Given that you live in LA, you should seriously consider heading into JKI and asking them to help you choose a knife suitible for you.

 

[JBroida]

for what its worth, i'll back back from japan and at the store again from the 15th... just wrapping up the last little bit of stuff here in japan right now

 

[Jeff Giblin]

Plusses to going carbon:
Sharpens super easy
Interesting to watch the patina develop. Sometimes I take one off just to watch it again.
You learn to wash, dry and store your knives when you are done with them. That is a really good custom with very sharp objects regardless of whether they rust or not. The rust is just the feedback mechanism. Nothing to worry about though. Takes a minute to remove if you forgot. Wouldn't even list it as a con.

Minusses:
Can give off a tiny bit of black color to food if the patina isn't very stable yet.

Don't like the smell when cutting pinapples.

In any case owning a carbon is special. You can show it to people and tell them about it and it is immediately obvious you have a sifferent breed of knife than they have at home, sharpening makes your day everytime. Carbon isn't for everybody but given that you bothered researching your next knife as opposed to getting one at the closest department store means it probably is for you.

Thank you for the support and info! I've been prepping for a nicer knife for a while now. In addition to being easier to sharpen, does carbon steel also hold and keep a better edge than PM? Definitely open to learning and exploring the ways of carbon.

I second everything said about carbon so far. For easier maintenance make sure the cladding in stainless, that will cut down on the amount of maintenance vs iron clad or monosteel carbon knives, as only the core steel will react. Although carbon can be intimidating, its also a great tool to learn proper respect for the tools, and you will learn to wipe down way more often.

As for Semi-Stainles steel, they come in diffrent reactivity, from Ginsanko and SLD which are very stain resistant to things like SKD or Heiji secret stainless, those will tarnish but are rust resistant.

Just realized you are from LA ... Maybe make a trip down to Japanese Knife Import to talk to Jon.

Thanks, I'll see if I can make it to the store next weekend! Do you have a recommendation of a stainless-clad carbon knife?

No need to be intimidated by carbon. They will rust if you leave them wet for a few hours, but not if you wash and dry them straight after prep. I rinse and dry after acidic food as well. I think that many pro chefs have a towel that they wipe the knife down with. Carbon steel will patina with use, especially after contact with acidic food. The patina can be quite pretty and is somewhat protective against rust. If it's any indication, I use carbon steel knives much more than stainless nowadays.

I have an Akifusa (my first good knife). The steel is relitavely easy to sharpen (on Choseras, FWIW) but not as easy as any carbon steel. Edge retention is very long. The cladding is super soft and scratches very easily. The spine and choil are downright sharp- not eased at all- I keep meaning to fix that. The pakkawood (a type of synthetic wood) western handle fits the bolster well. It's a moderately thin knife. It's a moderatly thin knife, with so-so food release, but it was a revelation to me (compared to the knives that I had been using up until then).

It's best to not make assumptions about OEMs, because they end up being incorrect as often as not.

JKI's Kagero is the same steel, with a very similar profile and thickness. The example I have handled was rehandled (so I am unsure whether or not it had aftermarket blade work) but the blade face, spine and choil on that example were much better finished than the Akifusa. I can't comment on the sharpenability or edge retention of the steel but I can say that I would be astounded if JKI gave its name to anything that didn't stack up.

I had a Ryusen Blazen. I gifted it and I often miss it. It has the most beautiful balance in the hand. Quite thin behind the edge, with better food release than Akifusa. Beautifully finished blade, spine, choil and (western pakkawood) handle. The cladding is not as soft as Akifusa. The R2 steel also pretty easy to sharpen and has very good edge retention (it's reputed as less long than SRS15 but in my home use, I honestly couldn't say that it was very different).

The Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminagashi is a taller R2 blade, with a subtle damascus cladding. Edge retention is very long. The spine and choil are eased but not rounded. It has an octagonal rosewood handle (perfectly serviceable but nothing special). An upgaded version (Shinko Kurokumo) with a nicer (ebony) handle and a well rounded spine and choil is available at KnS. This middleweight blade is fairly thin behind the edge (maybe slightly less so than Blazen) but the blade face has a reasonable amount of convexity and food release is fairly good.

I'm very tempted to try the Kurosaki R2. I have one of his AS blades, which is a great thinner (but not laser) knife.

Some great semistainless blades include Yoshikane SKD, Gesshin Gengetsu Semistainless and Initomonn (unfortunately no longer available), My Yoshikane is a thicker knife (with excellent food release) but apparently there are thinner versions available (expect the food release on these to be not as good). The Gesshin Gengetsu is a thin middleweight with a trick grind which allows it to have better food release than a knife this thin should have. Both are easy to sharpen and have fairly good edge retention. Both are clad in stainless steel.

There are lots of stainless clad carbons It's hard to go past Tanaka Najishi (Available in carbon blue2 and also stainless Ginsanko). I also like Kurosaki's Aogami Super knives.

Given that you live in LA, you should seriously consider heading into JKI and asking them to help you choose a knife suitible for you.

Thank you for going so in-depth with your suggestions- will do some further digging into these!

for what its worth, i'll back back from japan and at the store again from the 15th... just wrapping up the last little bit of stuff here in japan right now

Thank you Jon - what times will you be at the store on the 15th? Would love to come by.

 

[Nemo]

PM steels generally have longer edge retention than carbon steels. They do lose their freah off the stones sharpness fairly quickly, then settle into a long plateu of perfeclty acceptable sharpness. You won't get too much sharpening practice with a well heat treated PM steel.

 

[JBroida]

Thank you for the support and info! I've been prepping for a nicer knife for a while now. In addition to being easier to sharpen, does carbon steel also hold and keep a better edge than PM? Definitely open to learning and exploring the ways of carbon.



Thanks, I'll see if I can make it to the store next weekend! Do you have a recommendation of a stainless-clad carbon knife?



Thank you for going so in-depth with your suggestions- will do some further digging into these!



Thank you Jon - what times will you be at the store on the 15th? Would love to come by.

In general, If we’re open, I’m there

 

[daveb]

for what its worth, i'll back back from japan and at the store again from the 15th... just wrapping up the last little bit of stuff here in japan right now

Are you bringing back a sack full of Gengetsu? I'd give Labor's left nut for a 240 suji......

 

[JBroida]

Are you bringing back a sack full of Gengetsu? I'd give Labor's left nut for a 240 suji......

Sadly because of the way we currently have these produced that will not be possible for the time being... sorry

 

[JaVa]

Since your in LA and wan't ease of maintenance and good edge retention the JKI visit is a terrific idea. I'd take a closer look at the Kagero PM gyuto and Gengetsu Semi SS. Kagero for the ultimate edge retention and the Gengetsu for good edge retention, great cutting performance and almost carbon like sharpening experience.

I was in your shoes a few years back looking for a the best latest and greatest PM stuff. Then trying a few I learned the Semi SS was what I actually wanted. Love my PM:s still, but slightly prefer my semi SS knives.

 

[merlijny2k]

Thank you for the support and info! I've been prepping for a nicer knife for a while now. In addition to being easier to sharpen, does carbon steel also hold and keep a better edge than PM? Definitely open to learning and exploring the ways of carbon

I am not in a very good position to answer your question as I own knives in 4 steel types only, none of them PM. Hitachi blue carbon however definitely holds an edge WAY longer than run-of-the-mill carbon or stainless or whatever simple steel. I think it is safe to say there is a lot more spread between one carbon knife and another than between carbon and stainless.

 

[Boynutman]

Because you asked, the Takamura HSPS pro (black handle) 210mm is not particulary flexible. It is not completely stiff, but I would not call it flexible. From what I read the regular HSPS is thinner - and substantially cheaper.
Really love my HSPS pro, both how it feels and cuts and how it looks.

 

[Jeff Giblin]

Because you asked, the Takamura HSPS pro (black handle) 210mm is not particulary flexible. It is not completely stiff, but I would not call it flexible. From what I read the regular HSPS is thinner - and substantially cheaper.
Really love my HSPS pro, both how it feels and cuts and how it looks.

Thank you for your input! Have you sharpened the Takamura HSPS Pro (Black) yourself, or did you bring it to a sharpening service?

 

[Boynutman]

Sharpen it myself. Easier than the VG10 knives I have, easier to deburr, or so it seems in my limited experience.
On the forum it was suggested not to go for a too high grit for this steel in a gyuto, so I went up to 2000 (my next step would be 5000), and that gave me good results, a little bit toothy. And I did a micro bevel as per Jon's (JKI) method.

 

[Jon-cal]

I was worried about carbon steel at one point too. I have probably a dozen carbon or carbon core knives now and maintenance is not a big deal at all, especially in a home environment. And playing around with the patina is pretty fun.

I have a Shibata Bunka in PM steel that’s quite nice though. It’s a wa handle, so maybe not what you’re looking for but they’re nice blades.

 

[rick alen]

If you decide to go PM steel then I feel Kagero is the one to consider. My R2 Takamura gets slightly sharper, but the Kagero holds its sharp much longer.

 

[Jeff Giblin]

Thank you for all the input! I went to Japanese Knife Imports this weekend and had a great conversation with Jon - he is a wealth of knowledge! I left with the Gesshin Kagero 210mm Gyuto, which he sharpened out of the box for me. The spine and choil are nicely rounded, and the weight is almost exactly what I was looking for. Love it so far, and it balances perfectly with a pinch grip!

 

[Keith Sinclair]

I think the steel in that blade is SRS15. Great user friendly powder steel. The Akifusa SRS15 you can take to a very sharp edge and has significantly above average edge retention.