powered solutions to bevel flattening

[user 16756]

Lingering RSI issues coming back a bit have me wondering what solutions exist that might do a good job setting bevel shape in preparation for polishing.

Slower and more precise is better to minimize the time needed on coarse stones. I appreciate cost will be a different league than stones and Im ok with that.

 

[calostro5]

Do You think of using something like SoC powder or diamond powder to flat the blade?

 

[user 16756]

Do You think of using something like SoC powder or diamond powder to flat the blade?

how much faster is this an high quality sandpaper with a kasfly or a shapton 120?

there are a lot of decent knives out there with hollow grinds they take forever to flatten. or you get the ****shows like the Heiji carbon Ive been working on for what feels like a month that still has a hole in the edge. Im looking for something I can turn on and just hold the knife without applying any/much pressure or having to move a ton back and forth tbh. Even if it takes a while.

 

[Choppin]

one of those horizontal wheels? someone posted a Suehiro a while back

 

[ReiHamono]

I’ve seen these cut very quickly even at a low speed, but it takes time to learn the proper technique.

This is the solution I would go to if you have the space for it

If not then very low grit loose diamond dust and low grit loose SiC dust will do a great job in these rare instances.

Fast and accurate especially when it will be finished by hand

one of those horizontal wheels? someone posted a Suehiro a while back

 

[user 16756]

what do you put that stuff on? a flat piece of glass or an atoma plate (the raw metal side)?

and yes the goal is to transition to hand work to do final shaping, just cut down on the total amount of time I have to spend rubbing the steel on rocks.

 

[ReiHamono]

I’ve been using my shapton pro 120 which is a two for one since you’re de-glazing at the same time. I use a plastic container to catch the Diamond dust and reuse it.

This is another option if you’re good with a smaller stone, I hit it with my 150 atoma first to create a slurry, but you have to soak it.


https://www.baryonyxknife.com/bambest.html

 

[dabes]

1x30 belt grinders are commonly recommended as a step up from files on /r/knifemaking and they're only $50-70, the recommended grinders are >$1k

 

[mockit]

I’ve been kind of curious about Shinkos. Do they not really have enough umph for bevel work? I know Kamon uses them to sharpen and god knows he probably isn’t gentle on equipment with the amount of work he does. Kind of just sounds like everyone needs a 2x42 in their lives .

 

[dabes]

I’ve been kind of curious about Shinkos. Do they not really have enough umph for bevel work? I know Kamon uses them to sharpen and god knows he probably isn’t gentle on equipment with the amount of work he does. Kind of just sounds like everyone needs a 2x42 in their lives .

Dude that's exactly what I was looking for after I rubbed swarf off SG120 one too many times

 

[TB_London]

Disc grinder with variable speed would get things going and work out any unevenness
By changing which grit sandpaper can work through grits too

 

[user 16756]

I’ve been kind of curious about Shinkos. Do they not really have enough umph for bevel work? I know Kamon uses them to sharpen and god knows he probably isn’t gentle on equipment with the amount of work he does. Kind of just sounds like everyone needs a 2x42 in their lives .

This is the sort of thing I had in mind tbh.

Doesnt seem very popular around here though. Also I'd expect another zero on the price of something like that if it's going to last tbh.

 

[MowgFace]

This is the sort of thing I had in mind tbh.

Doesnt seem very popular around here though. Also I'd expect another zero on the price of something like that if it's going to last tbh.

I really like mine. Make sure to get the 180 wheel though.

 

[user 16756]

I really like mine. Make sure to get the 180 wheel though.

View attachment 243384

Awesome!

How even would you say you can get your bevels with it? Also Is this something that you feel like dramatically shortens the time you need to spend shaping bevels on coarse stones?

 

[dabes]

I really like mine. Make sure to get the 180 wheel though.

View attachment 243384

Did you need to also get a transformer or is it working fine with just an adapter?

 

[MowgFace]

Did you need to also get a transformer or is it working fine with just an adapter?

No Transformer. Just a regular 3 prong plug for me in the US. That picture is on my kitchen counter, and the plug is just out of frame.

 

[MowgFace]

Awesome!

How even would you say you can get your bevels with it? Also Is this something that you feel like dramatically shortens the time you need to spend shaping bevels on coarse stones?

For edge sharpening, i have been using the 1000 grit stone with very quick passes in order to get as even of a bevel as i can. usually takes 1-2 minutes? Ill try to grab a video of the full bevel process.

"Dramatically shortening the time" barely scratches the surface. The biggest project i did was on a Gesshin Ginga repair. Took a total of 28 minutes to do a full blade face thinning, scratch cleanup on Gesshin 220. 20 minutes thinning on the 180 grit wheel, and 8 minutes on the 220. I would estimate that it would have taken close to 4 hours to get the same amount of work solely on bench stones.

Before:

After 180:
See attached video.


After 220:

 

[cheeken1111]

my 2 cents.

Iwould recomend against the 1x30 from harbor freight. kitchen knifes are too thin and will burn the HT. Need something water cooled/slow/variable speed.

I have the shinko and wen sharpening setups. Each has their pro and cons.

Shinko spins quite fast. you can flatten with a diamond plate and get a relatively flat bevel. Down side for larger blades its hard to touch the stone where it is pulling you only in one direction. Often i am pulled right and left if i try to sharpen on a cheek. Or if i try to sharpen down the middle i can bump the opposite side of the stone. Its alot easier for edge touch ups and shorter blades ratger than thinning. That being said its doable and faster than a bench stone. May not be an issue if you get used to it or have better techniques.

The wen is super slow rotating and water cooled. It can remove a decent amount of metal and leaves a nice finish but does little to flatten. You need to test on a stone then grind selectively on high spots.

 

[mike59]

I have a Kalamzoo 1x42 - spins slower at 1725 RPMs but not sure what that is in "belt speed" which is what really matters as you don't want to generate too much heat on the edge. The price is around the $400 mark and it's way ahead of the Harbor Freight belt sanders. I'd also say look at the adjustable arm model as you can lay it down - but you can also just flip the other version over - may need to make a small box for it but trivial if you're pinching pennies. Finally, you'll want to get the "knife makers platen" - $65ish I think?

The belts you use make a huge difference. I've used cubic zirconium which is a step up from AlOx or SiC but still kept water nearby to keep the blade cool. Then went to 3M Cubitron and Trizact and it's night and day difference and worth every penny. The edge doesn't even get warm and the belts last longer. Also get one of the gum eraser like bars to clean the belts - again, longer life. I've just recently gotten decent at it since I've been mostly hand sharpening but came across my first really truly cheap, soft, crappy stainless knives that my SG500 barely touched and the Naniwa Pro 800 was useless with. This is where I said, "I have a belt sander and I'm not afraid to use it!" Since they are throw-away I don't care about them knives (give to me free for practice and not wanted back) I've probably done about 10-15 sharpenings and getting even good edges literally in minutes. I've actually got one that I'm going to take to 1micron diamond emulsion strop tonight.

I'd also say stay away from the harbor freight and similar 1x30 belt sanders since they move fast - but there are plenty of folks out there who do fine work with them. Of course some of them change the motor for a sewing machine motor that they can run at variable speed. Big improvement if you're into the effort.

I think that Rikon makes a variable speed 1x30 that's relatively cheap but no idea how good it is.

Another belt sander of interest to look at would be a Viel 1x42 but they are made in Canada and when I looked at them shipping was going to be in the $90 range which put total cost around the Kalamazoo so I went with that. There's a guy in the US that distributes them but when I was looking he was on vacation and I also didn't feel like waiting. There also a big following for them and modifying them to use sewing machine motors to make them variable speed even though they spin slower than the HF and similar belt sanders.

Lot's of YouTube videos about the Wen water wheel and even people using Tormek jigs with them - maybe even Tormek wheels/stones? Not 100% sure about that one. I thought / still do think about trying one sometimes but haven't done anything about it. No doubt that they aren't Tormek quality but could be a good thing to try in that arena but I'd watch lots of YouTube videos first to make sure you're aware of pros/cons.

Cliff Curry on YouTube is a big fan of the HF 1x30s, sharpens professionally, mods them, tunes them, ... etc. and a good source of info. Don't take anyone, even him as gospel, but lot's of vids to watch/gain an understanding from.

Hope this helps ... - Mike

ETA - isn't it @coxhaus who is an avid power tools sharpening guy? If I'm remembering correctly he would likely have some good info on the subject. If not I apologize in advance for ringing his virtual doorbell

 

[mike59]

Just to toss out one other powered solution to consider - The Work Sharp Ken Onion Sharpening System - a couple variations of which if it was me I'd go for the Elite edition which includes the Blade Grinding Attachment. I don't have any experience with them but seem to be pretty well liked.

 

[KasumiJLA]

I’ve been kind of curious about Shinkos. Do they not really have enough umph for bevel work? I know Kamon uses them to sharpen and god knows he probably isn’t gentle on equipment with the amount of work he does. Kind of just sounds like everyone needs a 2x42 in their lives .

I do own a Shinko STD-180E I bought at a good price from an auction. My goal was to use this one to just thin the main bevel and save time. I bought the 180 wheel too.

Unfortunately this is really not meant for thinning job. Here's why:

- The rpm is too high and it's hard to control. And if you have a grabby soft steel, it can lead to disastrous outcome.

- The 180 stone that comes with it is really not made to take this kind of work. She becomes burnish in less than 2 minutes and stops cutting. I tried directly under running water from my faucet, different diamond plate, sic powder etc.

- The work surface is very small and it is difficult to manage. The diameter of the stone is also small so instead of creating vertical lines it produces circular-isn pattern on the kireha. The work quickly becomes irregular.

- It's really really hard to keep a clean and crisp shinogi line. If you work on a kurouchi finish you'll be sure that something bad will happen. I never tried on a single bevel and I would never do on a power tool.

Note that I practiced on several knives and each time the result was disappointing. I prefer to work on my Shapton 120 for more precision and honestly it's faster. On the other hand, I'm really happy to have this machine because it allows me to create a micro bevel super quickly before continuing on my stones. I am a sharpener so it quickly became widely used in my work context.


This is the first try. The knife slipped and it was the hira who suffered.


It only takes half a second for something to go wrong...(scratch pattern from Morihei 1k, not the 180 wheel)

 

[MowgFace]

I do own a Shinko STD-180E I bought at a good price from an auction. My goal was to use this one to just thin the main bevel and save time. I bought the 180 wheel too.

Unfortunately this is really not meant for thinning job. Here's why:

- The rpm is too high and it's hard to control. And if you have a grabby soft steel, it can lead to disastrous outcome.

- The 180 stone that comes with it is really not made to take this kind of work. She becomes burnish in less than 2 minutes and stops cutting. I tried directly under running water from my faucet, different diamond plate, sic powder etc.

- The work surface is very small and it is difficult to manage. The diameter of the stone is also small so instead of creating vertical lines it produces circular-isn pattern on the kireha. The work quickly becomes irregular.

- It's really really hard to keep a clean and crisp shinogi line. If you work on a kurouchi finish you'll be sure that something bad will happen. I never tried on a single bevel and I would never do on a power tool.

Note that I practiced on several knives and each time the result was disappointing. I prefer to work on my Shapton 120 for more precision and honestly it's faster. On the other hand, I'm really happy to have this machine because it allows me to create a micro bevel super quickly before continuing on my stones. I am a sharpener so it quickly became widely used in my work context.

View attachment 243479
This is the first try. The knife slipped and it was the hira who suffered.

View attachment 243480
It only takes half a second for something to go wrong...(scratch pattern from Morihei 1k, not the 180 wheel)

I personally never experienced the "burnishing" you are reporting, but i soaked my 180 for 30min before i started sharpening.

In my post above, a 220 grit stone removed all of the 180 scratches no matter which direction they went. This machine for me is to save time on the coarse work, but i would never try to use this machine to get anything "crisp." Its purpose was to hog though hardened steel, which with my abused ginga, worked perfectly!

As with all tools, there are tradeoffs, but standing in front of a coarse stone is not what I want to do for hours.

 

[TB_London]

With all powered stuff the risk of slips goes up, as you learn to use them you also learn how to fix the slips, and then once you get good enough to not make slips you then use your skills at fixing slips to tidy up the knives people send you where they’ve already tried thinning and made a mess.
It’s a right of passage.

A variable speed disc grinder is the way to go for this sort of work. Belt grinder will hog in bevels, the disc will even them out

 

[canadianknives]

Knife Maker opinion.

2x72 Grinder with a glass platen is efficient and fast.

Disc Grinder with 1 degree bevel. Get ceramic 9" disc's

 

[user 16756]

Hey all do appreciate the advice so far & I will look into some of these options.

The only thing I will say is that I dont really need a thinning solution exactly, or something to grind a ton of new edges on cheap stainless. I'm specifically looking for something to make it easier to transition to bench stones for polishing work so precision is really the name of the game for me.

 

[TB_London]

Hey all do appreciate the advice so far & I will look into some of these options.

The only thing I will say is that I dont really need a thinning solution exactly, or something to grind a ton of new edges on cheap stainless. I'm specifically looking for something to make it easier to transition to bench stones for polishing work so precision is really the name of the game for me.

Look up nick wheeler sanding sticks - if you want precision then coarse sandpaper with a hard backing will help you level them out and get a consistent scratch pattern ready for stones. If you want it powered the disc grinder is the way to go