Preparing for COVID-19

[lowercasebill]

Well written and timely article about social distancing

https://medium.com/@ariadnelabs/social-distancing-this-is-not-a-snow-day-ac21d7fa78b4

 

[Luftmensch]

AUD 13,000 in Queensland.

True! Not sure what it is down south though...

Have a look at the video with Norman Swan I posted earlier. They shouldn't be comfortable with it.

I did . I have also been following the Corona-cast. Dr Swan does err on the side of shutting schools down earlier - but he is hesitant as it is a 'difficult decision'. Greg Hunt is one of the better performers of that rabble (not that it says much). Through all his fumbled advice and delivery I am trusting that he has received this advice from proper experts. Perhaps that is naive of me! I would not be surprised if we eventually see schools shutdown soon. Universities as well. Further travel bans would probably be appropriate (America? Spain? France? UK?)

Two days ago, our prime minister assured everyone that it was perfectly OK to go to the footy. Into a stadium with 40,000 people in it. Good job, man!

Yeah... look this was just silly (go the Sharks though). They should have gotten on this earlier. Shutting down live entertainment is disappointing but seems like easy, low-hanging fruit to me.

By the time we see the numbers change, we need to think about not those numbers, but what those numbers will be two weeks from now, and take measures to deal with the numbers as they will be in two weeks' time. But we are not doing that.

I can only hope that they have access to data and modelling we do not. That they are trying to walk that fine line of balancing health measures against civic disruption. Waiting for the last reasonable minute to deploy disruptive measures. Again, this could be naive of me. I also say this as somebody who is very much not a fan of the current government - so this isn't said out of partisanship. I certainly don't envy the people making the decisions right now...

 

[Luftmensch]

Unless you want your super in the next few years, I reckon it will recover. What we really need is at the end of all this for confidence to pick up quickly again so that we don't have high unemployment which causes more uncertainty which impairs investment, which causes more unemployment... in a kind of vicious cycle.

Forgot to respond to this point! I will be fine. I have several decades to recover... Elder members of my family/social network do not. I think it has shaken them up a bit - they will have to rethink retirement.

We may sail through this and bounce back to maintain our mediocre economic performance. But the economy was in poor shape before this - it is vulnerable. It might not bounce back. In fact, a worst case scenario might be the recession we avoided more than 10 years ago. I have no idea what scenario awaits - it fascinates me...

 

[ian]

Not that anyone's asking, but I can tell you all from experience that a bunch of cotton tea towels or similar can pretty effectively be cut into strips/squares and used as TP, bagged, then run through the washing machine for re-use.

Yup. It's the same thing as washing nappies. There might even be some parents left these days who know what that means. Not that I'm holding my breath…

My bathroom actually came with a bidet. Funny, I didn’t even realize it at first.

On a separate note, has anyone noticed that there have been a lot of gross threads recently on KKF? Maybe the mods should crack down on cracks about ***-cracks.

 

[Michi]

I certainly don't envy the people making the decisions right now...

Right. Worst job in the world right now.

We may sail through this and bounce back to maintain our mediocre economic performance. But the economy was in poor shape before this - it is vulnerable. It might not bounce back. In fact, a worst case scenario might be the recession we avoided more than 10 years ago.

A recession is a certainty at this point. We'll have small businesses go to the wall by the thousands. (They make up roughly half of Australia's GDP.)

Another consequence: Australia's next government won't be liberal/national. Not necessarily because they are doing a poor job (even though they are), but because, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, everyone will be poring over the statistics and point out what a terrible job they did at making decisions. Never mind that the decisions that really matter are the ones made by everyone. Such as whether to go to the footy or not.

But blaming the government is a popular past-time Down Under.

 

[CiderBear]

On a separate note, has anyone noticed that there have been a lot of gross threads recently on KKF? Maybe the mods should crack down on cracks about ***-cracks.

I think most people don't realize that KKF has a pretty robust Ignore feature. I love it.

 

[Michi]

I think most people don't realize that KKF has a pretty robust Ignore feature. I love it.

It has an ignore feature?! Please tell me how I can ignore you!

(That was a joke!)

 

[ian]

I think most people don't realize that KKF has a pretty robust Ignore feature. I love it.

Too true. It’s integrated seamlessly with your brain—- you don’t even need to press a button. That’s high level tech.

 

[Michi]

Too true. It’s integrated seamlessly with your brain—- you don’t even need to press a button.

Did someone just say something?

 

[Michi]

Germany closes its borders with France, Austria, and Switzerland:

https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deut...chweiz-a-9910fb81-f635-4be5-8138-bcbcbfd491d4

 

[WildBoar]

But blaming the government is a popular past-time Down Under.

Popular? In the US it is an art form right now. Nothing better than a large amount of people who want the gov't to tell them what to do versus using common sense. Do I need to be told not to put myself in the middle of a crowd of 50 people right now? No, I do not need to wait until the gov't tells me it would not be prudent. Do I need to have the gov't tell me to wash my hands? Well thank Dog they did, as otherwise I probably would not, and that would be bad since we ran out of toilet paper and need to use our left hands (or is that right hands? I'll try to remember after I put down this cheeseburger I am currently holding up to my mouth)

 

[Michi]

We made the call to largely self-isolate ten days ago. Not because I believe in doom, but because I know something about exponential growth.

We'll sit it out, with limited contact to people. Not fun, and I'll probable go stir-crazy at some point. But, the longer we can delay getting infected (as we will eventually, with near certainty), the better for everyone, including ourselves.

Almost everyone getting infected at some point is inevitable now. But we can act to slow that down as much as possible and give everyone a better chance.

 

[ian]

Popular? In the US it is an art form right now. Nothing better than a large amount of people who want the gov't to tell them what to do versus using common sense. Do I need to be told not to put myself in the middle of a crowd of 50 people right now? No, I do not need to wait until the gov't tells me it would not be prudent. Do I need to have the gov't tell me to wash my hands? Well thank Dog they did, as otherwise I probably would not, and that would be bad since we ran out of toilet paper and need to use our left hands (or is that right hands? I'll try to remember after I put down this cheeseburger I am currently holding up to my mouth)

Fair enough, but having some consistent, accurate and measured direction from on high would be helpful, I think. Washing hands and not going into crowds doesn’t require much sacrifice, but not going to work, not doing necessary travel, deciding not to hold playdates when your school is closed, etc.... do. I’m not saying that the government needs to hold our hands and tell us exactly what to do in each situation, but currently the government is not even being consistent about what the current level of risk is. You’ll get wildly different official opinions from the president and his administration, even. It would also help if there were some better publicized, consistent official guidelines about what to do if you’re sick. Ie when to get tested, how to get tested, how to self quarantine, etc...

 

[Michi]

Fair enough, but having some consistent, accurate and measured direction from on high would be helpful, I think

A different president might help.

It appears that the US response to this has been singularly inept. Check your Twitter feed for the most up-to-date and reliable information.

 

[ian]

A different president might help.

It appears that the US response to this has been singularly inept. Check your Twitter feed for the most up-to-date and reliable information.

Seriously. All my accurate information about the crisis comes from nongovernmental sources. Hope they manage to get more testing sites operational soon, at least. Can’t wait to become the new Italy...

 

[Michi]

All my accurate information about the crisis comes from nongovernmental sources.

It is really difficult to figure out what is accurate right now. Here, Down Under, the story we get from the government does not quite line up with the story we get from epidemiologists. My money is on the epidemiologists…

 

[WildBoar]

I'm on some other forums that are international as well, and almost universally everyone bitches about their government's responses and directives. And that includes Australia and England.

Frankly I do not know why anyone would listen to a president, prime minister, king, etc. for something like this. They are all politicians and have their own agendas. It is so incredibly easy find the CDC recommendations why the heck would anyone need to wit for the president to say something? Plus in the US the States come first, so really State officials are the primary ones to enact restrictions. And counties/ cities can enact stricter guidelines if they desire (and many have). The Federal government really should be focusing on controlling overseas travelers and let the State governments do what they are supposed to do.

 

[ian]

I'm on some other forums that are international as well, and almost universally everyone bitches about their government's responses and directives. And that includes Australia and England.

Frankly I do not know why anyone would listen to a president, prime minister, king, etc. for something like this. They are all politicians and have their own agendas. It is so incredibly easy find the CDC recommendations why the heck would anyone need to wit for the president to say something? Plus in the US the States come first, so really State officials are the primary ones to enact restrictions. And counties/ cities can enact stricter guidelines if they desire (and many have). The Federal government really should be focusing on controlling overseas travelers and let the State governments do what they are supposed to do.

It strikes me that there’s not much that’s more national (really, global) than a viral pandemic. There’s so much interstate travel in the US that diverting all responsibility to the states seems, well, irresponsible. And 90% of the news many people consume is national news, so if each state has different standards that’s going to be quite confusing. I don’t want to have a top down approach that’s as authoritarian as China’s, but coordination is the only way to fight this thing.

 

[labor of love]

Almost everyone getting infected at some point is inevitable now. But we can act to slow that down as much as possible and give everyone a better chance.

Calm down lol. Almost everyone is not getting infected.

 

[Dave Martell]

Duct tape.....it still fixes everything you know. Use it on the ass like a wax strip...pulls the poop off in one swipe.

 

[chinacats]

Know nothing about the source but this may be some positive news...though not immediately helpful...

https://www.jpost.com/HEALTH-SCIENC...weeks-we-will-have-coronavirus-vaccine-619101

 

[ian]

Know nothing about the source but this may be some positive news...though not immediately helpful...

https://www.jpost.com/HEALTH-SCIENC...weeks-we-will-have-coronavirus-vaccine-619101

That’s optimistic. I’ll be waiting to see what happens with this.

 

[WildBoar]

It strikes me that there’s not much that’s more national (really, global) than a viral pandemic. There’s so much interstate travel in the US that diverting all responsibility to the states seems, well, irresponsible. And 90% of the news many people consume is national news, so if each state has different standards that’s going to be quite confusing. I don’t want to have a top down approach that’s as authoritarian as China’s, but coordination is the only way to fight this thing.

Well it's more confusing than that because many cities and counties have their own more stringent requirements. Which in my opinion is how it should be. National should focus on international travel, and making resources available to the States, who then make it available to the local governments.

Good luck getting all cities, counties and states on the "same page", especially when the local governments' police forces are the ones who have to enforce any of the policies. And the Federal government should not have to direct all entities to enact whatever the most stringent county in the US is enforcing; that's like forcing all Speed Limits to stay below 25 mph because that is what the mayor of Washington DC wants for the DC.

This stuff isn't rocket science. If someone has not read recommendations yet for reasonable conduct with respect to the virus than their head must be stuck in the sand. I don't care if it's the Trump administration, Obama, Clinton, Bush, Kennedy, etc. -- I would not wait for and standby whatever they announced.

 

[HRC_64]

If someone has not read recommendations yet for reasonable conduct with respect to the virus than their head must be stuck in the sand.

Extensive CDC guidelines have been published for two weeks.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/get-your-household-ready-for-COVID-19.html?

eg 1 prevention basics

Practice everyday preventive actions now. Remind everyone in your household of the importance of practicing everyday preventive actions that can help prevent the spread of respiratory illnesses:

Avoid close contact with people who are sick.
Stay home when you are sick, except to get medical care.
Cover your coughs and sneezes with a tissue.

eg 2 sanitization basics

Clean frequently touched surfaces and objects daily (e.g., tables, countertops, light switches, doorknobs, and cabinet handles) using a regular household detergent and water.

If surfaces are dirty, they should be cleaned using a detergent and water prior to disinfection. For disinfection, a list of products with Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)-approved emerging viral pathogens claims, maintained by the American Chemistry Council Center for Biocide Chemistries (CBC), is available at Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19) Fighting Productspdf iconexternal icon. Always follow the manufacturer’s instructions for all cleaning and disinfection products.

Wash your hands often with soap and water for at least 20 seconds, especially after going to the bathroom; before eating; and after blowing your nose, coughing, or sneezing. If soap and water are not readily available, use a hand sanitizer that contains at least 60% alcohol. Always wash your hands with soap and water if your hands are visibly dirty.

eg3 Isolation - planning

Choose a room in your home that can be used to separate sick household members from those who are healthy. Identify a separate bathroom for the sick person to use, if possible. Plan to clean these rooms, as needed, when someone is sick. Learn how to care for someone with COVID-19 at home.

eg 4 - Cleaning products technical guideline

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prepare/cleaning-disinfection.html
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/list-n-disinfectants-use-against-sars-cov-2

This guidance provides recommendations on the cleaning and disinfection of households where persons under investigation (PUI) or those with confirmed COVID-19 reside or may be in self-isolation. It is aimed at limiting the survival of the virus in the environments. These recommendations will be updated if additional information becomes available.

...

Cleaning refers to the removal of germs, dirt, and impurities from surfaces. Cleaning does not kill germs, but by removing them, it lowers their numbers and the risk of spreading infection.

Disinfecting refers to using chemicals to kill germs on surfaces. This process does not necessarily clean dirty surfaces or remove germs, but by killing germs on a surface after cleaning, it can further lower the risk of spreading infection.

 

[Nemo]

Toilet paper is your friend, man!

You can use it for its normal purpose, no problem. In addition:

• Getting cold? Mound it into a pile, put a match to it, and warm yourself.
• If you are still cold when going to sleep, wrap yourself in TP and stay warm.
• Need to remove some make-up? TP is your friend!
• Need to remove some nail polish? A bit of TP and acetone will fix it in a jiffy.
• Got a spill of something on the floor? Not a problem, a bit of TP will clean it up right away.
• Got the sneezes? TP will catch your snot and, on top of that, save everyone around you from catching coronavirus, too.
• Hungry? TP, a bit of hot water and a bit of salt and pepper, and you got yourself a filling meal.

And, beyond all that, TP is biodegradable and environmentally friendly. So, the more you use, the more you are doing to help save the planet. (Ideally, every single person in the world would use at least a ton of toilet paper every year; it would solve all our environmental problems, with so many people doing so much to save the planet…)

So, as you can see, when the apocalypse comes, the very first thing you want to do is stock up on toilet paper.

It's only logical, isn't it?

https://i1.wp.com/politicallyincorr...ak-toilet-paper-fort.jpg?resize=520,348&ssl=1

 

[Nemo]

https://theconversation.com/explain...ntine-people-in-a-coronavirus-outbreak-132877
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...lian-government-have-to-respond-to-the-threat
https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/ohp-ahmppi.htm

It looks like the laws are based around compelling people to act in response to public health requirements - if people refuse, power exists to detain them. There are also powers to declare an area a 'health zone' which would place requirements on people entering/exiting the zone. While having such emergency powers is reasonable, it is fair to have concern over what independent oversight is applied when compelling people to act.

I originally equated 'lockdown' with the 'weld the doors shut' scenario. I do think an Italy (now France & Spain) style lock down could be applied to a city like Sydney. But it is worth understanding what that is... people can still go to work (if their work is open) and go to the shops/pharmacy. In my mind 'shut down' is more appropriate... but perhaps I am being too nit-picky about language!

Yeah, I think we are on the same page now.

 

[Nemo]

That is where the true terror lies! Snakes, spiders, crocodiles, drop-bears...

Don't tell them about the drop bears!

We still need to have a tourism industry when this all ends.

 

[Nemo]

True! Not sure what it is down south though...

I quite liked the California Governor's response to a similar question:

Something like:

'The penalty is that your grandparents might die'.

 

[ian]

Well it's more confusing than that because many cities and counties have their own more stringent requirements. Which in my opinion is how it should be. National should focus on international travel, and making resources available to the States, who then make it available to the local governments.

Good luck getting all cities, counties and states on the "same page", especially when the local governments' police forces are the ones who have to enforce any of the policies. And the Federal government should not have to direct all entities to enact whatever the most stringent county in the US is enforcing; that's like forcing all Speed Limits to stay below 25 mph because that is what the mayor of Washington DC wants for the DC.

This stuff isn't rocket science. If someone has not read recommendations yet for reasonable conduct with respect to the virus than their head must be stuck in the sand. I don't care if it's the Trump administration, Obama, Clinton, Bush, Kennedy, etc. -- I would not wait for and standby whatever they announced.

National coordination doesn’t mean having every county enact the same level of response. In my mind, it means having the federal government (which has resources to study this problem that local governments do not) give recommendations to the states on what level of response to apply to a given threat level (when do you close schools, for instance?), and to coordinate the establishment of things like testing sites, and probably a bunch of other things that I don’t know about. Surely, establishing testing protocols such should be something that the federal government should handle. There’s probably a best way to do this given the data, and the federal government is to my knowledge the one that has the people studying this. Anyway, I’m not saying the US should turn into China, but just that the federal government could be handling this much more competently. That gaffe where the head of the CDC (I think? can’t remember) was asked who’s in charge of making sure people get tested, and he said “I’ll get back to you”, was sort of indicative of the level of confusion in the federal response.

 

[Nemo]

We are getting pretty close to the line of a political discussion here.

Lets not go there.

I think it's reasonable to complain about or ridicule a specific governmental response where appropriate. Save the political analysis for Twitter, though.