Quest - a short Japanese kitchen knife

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Hello, contrarian opinion here:
A first J knife for mom should not be an expensive one. Is she the type of person who will finish chopping and scrape the blade against the cutting board to push the ingredients aside?
"Edge retention" should come from having a higher edge grind angle and toothiness, not a shaving sharp laser edge with high HRC steel.
(Unless you like to visit mom weekly for sharpening)
I would suggest an inexpensive knife with any of the "tougher" types of steels, like Moly Vanadium 58 HRC, maybe even G3.
 
beanbag said:
Hello, contrarian opinion here:
A first J knife for mom should not be an expensive one. Is she the type of person who will finish chopping and scrape the blade against the cutting board to push the ingredients aside?
I would suggest an inexpensive knife...
Click to expand...

Considering that we own a few quality knives that are many decades old, I'm not going to buy something that is not exactly as I intended, just to throw it into the drawer after that "first"; (have a selection of such waste in the secondary kitchen).
Also, I've seen my grandmother scrape the board with a knife but ONLY with the back; certainly never heard or seen scraping anyone with the blade side.
 
I think his point is that sometimes 'more HRC' doesn't necessarily bring anything for many users. It's not going to make a knife cut better, and can come with drawbacks. Higher theoretical edge retention isn't helpful if the end user just chips it. Just like a higher edge retention steel isn't going to make a knife cut better; it's just going to make the edge last longer - if the end user manages to use in a fashion that keeps it from chipping.

If I can speak for myself, the favorite knives I own and my best cutters are not the ones with the highest HRC and the fanciest steel.
And while I would consider recommending something like a Takamura R2 for some of the people I know (edge retention can be beneficial if people don't sharpen themselves), I definitly wouldn't universally recommend it to just anyone. It's hard to say from a distance in which category someone falls.
 
Jovidah said:
... to use in a fashion that keeps it from chipping.
... and the fanciest steel.
...if people don't sharpen themselves...
Click to expand...
As I've mentioned, we have made ample experience with a high end black-ceramic Kyocera knife (more than a decade or two ago when it was all the hype).
One can't sharpen that thing, it's very delicate to breaking, shattering and that higher "cut" is of no consequence in real use.
That is something one can reccomend only to YouTube-rs.

By the way, do you have some sort of a Covid related situation up there in the Netherlands? I've sent two mails already asking the "meesterslijpers" about when they estimate to restock the Takamura R2 and there is not even a smoke message in return.
 
Noxion said:
As I've mentioned, we have made ample experience with a high end black-ceramic Kyocera knife (more than a decade or two ago when it was all the hype).
One can't sharpen that thing, it's very delicate to breaking, shattering and that higher "cut" is of no consequence in real use.
That is something one can reccomend only to YouTube-rs.

By the way, do you have some sort of a Covid related situation up there in the Netherlands? I've sent two mails already asking the "meesterslijpers" about when they estimate to restock the Takamura R2 and there is not even a smoke message in return.
Click to expand...

We had a member here (Rick Theory) who sharpened his Black Kyocera knife. Used to be an active member, and did a bunch of cutting videos at his work as well as rehandle and sharpening videos.


See the knife at the 1:32 mark
 
@MowgFace
I better not recall how very expensive the Kyocera black ceramic knife was back then and that marketing and the hype managed to sell me a kitchen hoax tool.
I must admit it was not the only such hype-sell I've fallen to.
I can recall buying a bag-less (cyclonic) vacuum cleaner.
A steamer (you know, perfect for vegetables - NOT!). Totally unusable. Except for cooking rice.
Hmm, and a few other smaller things.


You have a long memory, recalling such an old video. 😁 You would be perfect for a libriarian 😄😄😄
 
Noxion said:
@MowgFace
I better not recall how very expensive the Kyocera black ceramic knife was back then and that marketing and the hype managed to sell me a kitchen hoax tool.
I must admit it was not the only such hype-sell I've fallen to.
I can recall buying a bag-less (cyclonic) vacuum cleaner.
A steamer (you know, perfect for vegetables - NOT!). Totally unusable. Except for cooking rice.
Hmm, and a few other smaller things.


You have a long memory, recalling such an old video. 😁 You would be perfect for a libriarian 😄😄😄
Click to expand...

Rick was one of the OGs of the forum when I joined. Learned a lot from him and also got to see some great knives in action.
 
Noxion said:
By the way, do you have some sort of a Covid related situation up there in the Netherlands? I've sent two mails already asking the "meesterslijpers" about when they estimate to restock the Takamura R2 and there is not even a smoke message in return.
Click to expand...
Have never dealt with those "Meesterslijpers", so I can't tell you if that is the way they do their business. No force majeure here, anyway, that could excuse such a rudeness.
 
MowgFace said:
Rick was one of the OGs of the forum when I joined. Learned a lot from him and also got to see some great knives in action.
Click to expand...

I'm more into pots, baking forms, pans and old recipies. 😄 As for knives, they must cut and be of quality.

Benuser said:
Have never dealt with those "Meesterslijpers", so I can't tell you if that is the way they do their business. No force majeure here, anyway, that could excuse such a rudeness.
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They have over 20.000 very positive reviews. The shop seems nice and the internet site is organised.
Mayhap they've tried an "alternative" anti-covid19 treatment that didn't go down that well. Or got confused regarding the Amanita Caesarea and put some other Amanita into the Quiche. :laughingchef:

It just came to my mind; planning some new pots/pans for the new year? :flippingpan: :dining:
 

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Noxion said:
They have over 20.000 very positive reviews.
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A positive review doesn't mean anything to me, as long as salesmen may select the reviews they publish. I have followed some time an American retailer who isn't that well known for his dealing with problems when they do occur: never seen a bad review on his own site.
As said, I haven't so far dealt myself with Meesterslijpers. I do have noticed though that it's worth comparing their prices with others, as there were unexplainable fluctuations. As with their sharpening: they use some powered machine which leaves a very typical unsharpened heel. The quality of the result differs a lot, depending on who actually did the job. For the same money, you may get far better and more consistent sharpening on a water-cooled wheel.
 
Benuser said:
worth comparing their prices with others, as there were unexplainable fluctuations.
As with their sharpening: they use some powered machine...
Click to expand...

Well, I'm on the market for the SG2 Takamura knives; the 120mm, 150mm and probably the 180mm. The 120mm one is sold out everywhere (except one shop in Sweden that is considerably more expensive).
I really would not sharpen a knife in such a way; not even a cheap one. Actually, even my garden shears get a hand sharpening!
Terrible; and they call themselves master-slijpers! :angiefavorite:
 
I just gave their sharpening as an explanation why I have always kept distance. Not that I'm interested in the service: but it is how they are dealing with average, ignorant customers. I can recognise on a few meters a knife that went through their hands — or, more precisely, through their machine.
 
I've only ordered from Meesterslijpers in the past... was always quick and troublefree. The handful of emails I sent them in the past came back pretty quick.
Takamura consistently goes in and out of stock everywhere, but they're not the kind of knife that goes out of stock for years like a Shigefusa.

For what it's worth; the general recommendation on the Takamura is to put a 15 degree per side microbevel on it, since the out of the box edge would microchip for virtually everyone if you didn't. It's also a knife that at least feels quite delicate, though admittedly I didn't exactly do destructive testing on mine. If you want to read a lengthier review I wrote about it: Takamura R2 Migaki mini-review
If you look around on German forums you should also be able to find a few reviews (often under the name ASAGAO, it was sold as an OEM knife in the past).

If Takamura is what you want and you don't want to wait for meesterslijpers, Japan-messer-shop might be able to oblige:
Takamura Migaki R2 / PM Stahl

There might be some other EU retailers that stock it as well and they may have better prices; this was just the first alternative that came to mind.
Moderncooking has some of the VG10 variants in stock.
 
@Jovidah


I can see that Takamura shares some of the faults with me.
I tend to apply the sharpening rod (and stones on occasion) in such a way that I always form a very narrow and high V edge form on all the knives. It’s not intentional, but I always have that feeling during knife maintenance that I’m in danger of stumping the edge and after some time all the knives get this form along their edge.
Then, after a week of use of my Wüsthof Santoku, I always scream at the mini chippings along its blade.


Thanks for shop links; I’ve checked Moderncooking (it looks like a shop for Japanese knives connoisseurs); the “Japan messer shop’s” 130mm version is out of stock (as everywhere else). I must say that I’ve made a list of various smaller knives made of “super” steels; Takamura has the best price/value ratio for what I’d like, but there are other highly interesting knives out there and the small sizes are mostly out of stock, Covid-19 consequences no doubt.
 
I also wanted (in the topic of knives) to make Mom happy ... but remember - "old trees do not go to a new place". For $ 200, I advise you to buy a "bucket" of randomly selected knives, pettys, peelers ... (eg TK / TJ Maxx). Your mom will definitely choose some "great" knives for herself that will make her a lot of fun - of course, her choice will be a big surprise.
Also buy a Takamura - when you visit Mom, you will have at least one good knife for yourself.
:cheers:
 
Benuser said:
@Noxion
What kind of rod do you use?
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Just got back from the front yard; they've said the sun would shine and I went to clean it and the rain hit.

The first one was bought more than 15 years ago; a Zwilling metal rod I still use for cheap knives. I tried to get something better but the shops in Slovenia didn't have any valid options and the Italian shops were even far worse.
Later I got sharpening "rods" that are used in industry for tool maintenance. Slovenia has a lot of contractors for the German and Austrian manufacturers and these contractors have a huge number of tooling machines that need sharpening. One of the suppliers to these contractors asked me what I intend to sharpen, what kind of knives and all that, and then sent me the items.
 
If they are in some way abrasive you'll have to find a way to deal with the burr. Or the edge retention suffers terribly.
In the rare cases I use a ceramic rod my last strokes are 'sur place', along the edge, which is a safe way to get rid of the burr without creating a new one, provided the touch is as light as feasible.
 
Benuser said:
If they are in some way abrasive you'll have to find a way to deal with the burr. Or the edge retention suffers terribly.
In the rare cases I use a ceramic rod my last strokes are 'sur place', along the edge, which is a safe way to get rid of the burr without creating a new one, provided the touch is as light as feasible.
Click to expand...
I'll get a few stones and a new ceramic rod for the new knives. I didn't bring this thing up since the knives I'm interested in are sold out.
 
I might be late to the party, but the 135 Masakage Koishi Ko-bunka is a great little knife with enough blade height to be used on a cutting board.
 
Since when AS is not a "super steel" :D

Seriously, most super steels are not stainless as they are all tool steels (k390, M4, HAP40/Rex45, Cruwear, etc.). SG2 is from the current standpoint less 'super ' than say S30V which no one calls super steel anymore. If you want to go all in, then you would have to have someone like BBB to make you a custom knife from one of those crazy steel, but then you would also need to get some diamond stones to get most out of that blade.

BTW, doesn't Masakage also use SG2 in some of their lines?
 
Matus said:
Since when AS is not a "super steel" :D

Seriously, most super steels are not stainless as they are all tool steels (k390, M4, HAP40/Rex45, Cruwear, etc.). SG2 is from the current standpoint less 'super ' than say S30V which no one calls super steel anymore. If you want to go all in, then you would have to have someone like BBB to make you a custom knife from one of those crazy steel, but then you would also need to get some diamond stones to get most out of that blade.

BTW, doesn't Masakage also use SG2 in some of their lines?
Click to expand...
A semi-stainless is more than enough for kitchen use; I'm more interested in other fineries and the idea. As for diamonds, ceramic and other such ideas, I'll leave that to Star Wars fans,...

I didn't have time to check the whole Masakage lineup yet :)
 
Benuser said:
If they are in some way abrasive you'll have to find a way to deal with the burr. Or the edge retention suffers terribly.
In the rare cases I use a ceramic rod my last strokes are 'sur place', along the edge, which is a safe way to get rid of the burr without creating a new one, provided the touch is as light as feasible.
Click to expand...

In the wild I used to use a kitchen rag held taut to deburr after the ceramic rod. I used to hone an army's worth of buffet carver slicers this way. I think I got the idea originally from a Jon Broida video. Cereal box works well. Or the side of a paper towel roll. I think I learned that one from Ian.
 
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