Question on AEB-L (Artifex) in sharpening and edge retention [vs Forschner]

Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
What does backing on sandpaper mean? Does it mean a raised surface like a piece of 2x4 block of wood?

How many sheets of sandpaper do you guys think the thinning project would take assuming I cut them to ~4.5in x 11in size? I don't want to have to spend more than what it would be for a coarse stone (a reason why I was eyeing the Naniwa Omura #150 was that it is fairly affordable for the size).
Would thinning a knife like this kill a diamond plate like DMT XXC or Atoma 140?

Does it have to be wet sanded, or is dry sanding okay, followed by wet sanding to get rid of the deep scratches? Briefly searching, it does not seem like 120 grit wet/dry sandpaper is readily available

Hmm, yes, I've heard of the pink brick, so many choices.
 
P120 sandpaper should easily be found in automotive hardware stores. I use a type of it with linen backing, it will last forever, but loses some abrasion power of course. Two standard sheets should do, I guess. Cost $1 per sheet. I use them on a wooden cigar box, to have a slightly softer backing and a setup similar to a sharpening stone, a little easier when you work around the heel. Wet or dry: when you don't use a lot of pressure it doesn't really matter, IMHO. Verify the temperature, though. Use edge trailing strokes only.
 
anyone else use pink brick for thinning? chosera 400 is amazing stone but it doesnt remove metal fast enough. naniwa 150 does remove quick, but it dishes so fast you have to flatten multiple times DURING thinning which is aggravating as all hell.
 
I've got a pink brick 220 purchased from EE and I think it works great for thinning as long as you keep a light touch and allow the stone to do the work. If you use too much pressure it will load up and will have to refresh the surface.
 
I use my Chosera 400 for thinning behind the edge with normally maintained blades, or cutting an edge, but with project knives in need of severe thinning I start with coarse sandpaper.
 
i really didnt like the naniwa omura 150....its a cheap stone and gets the job done, but it sucks lol. spend $5 more and get a gesshin 220 stone. it has to be a better stone....i havent used one yet, but if jon included it in the gesshin line up it must be top notch.
 
Seems like a Gesshin 220 is gonna cost me ~$19 more after tax and shipping, I don't feel like killing most of a quality stone until I got my sharpening techniques down, I'm still learning here. Also you get like double the real estate on the Omura. Slightly larger surface, and twice the height.

I'm considering a Beston 500 or a Gesshin 400.

How come you don't like the Omura?
 
omura clogs up pretty easily with swarf...and the only reason i would use a stone that low would be for thinning...so its counterproductive...it works for some people but i used my beston instead...maybe a low grit king would be a better option?
 
omura clogs up pretty easily with swarf...and the only reason i would use a stone that low would be for thinning...so its counterproductive...it works for some people but i used my beston instead...maybe a low grit king would be a better option?

I was going to comment on this thread because I've used a King 250 before and I was going to recommend against getting a super low grit stone. You can remove a significant amount of material in a very short time if you're not careful with a sub 400 grit stone in my experience. (I use 400 as a reference point because the Gesshin 400 that I use seems to be significantly less abrasive than the King 250.) The King 250 is ROUGH.

You can definitely use an Atoma 140 (and I assume a DMT XXC although I've never used a DMT; I have the Atoma 140) to thin a knife. I have. Will it reduce the life of the Atoma? Of course. But how much depends on how much you use it for thinning. Getting a DMT would also allow you to use it as a flattener so you're kind of killing two birds with one stone (no pun intended).

But, in my experience, it does take significant effort and time to remove scratches (if you care about this kind of stuff) if you use a very coarse stone. I just used my Gesshin 400 yesterday, followed by my Gesshin 2000 on a Sakai Takayuki petty and a Masamoto KS and with about 10 minutes of work on each, I was able to get rid of most of the scratches of the 400 with the 2000 (to my non-contact lenses eyes). However, using the 250, in my experience, seems to require a lower grit stone before going up to a higher grit stone.

So, since you have the Beston 1000, I think a DMT XX or possibly even an X could be a good solution. (From what I can tell from the DMT website, the X is equivalent to 220 grit.) Again, I've never used these plates; I wouldn't hesitate to recommend an Atoma, but I think it's a lot more than you want to pay.

You'll probably want to ask around to see how the X is as a flattener and coarse stone. But at about $50, it could be a good alternative.
 
What does backing on sandpaper mean? Does it mean a raised surface like a piece of 2x4 block of wood?

How many sheets of sandpaper do you guys think the thinning project would take assuming I cut them to ~4.5in x 11in size? I don't want to have to spend more than what it would be for a coarse stone (a reason why I was eyeing the Naniwa Omura #150 was that it is fairly affordable for the size).
Would thinning a knife like this kill a diamond plate like DMT XXC or Atoma 140?

Does it have to be wet sanded, or is dry sanding okay, followed by wet sanding to get rid of the deep scratches? Briefly searching, it does not seem like 120 grit wet/dry sandpaper is readily available

Hmm, yes, I've heard of the pink brick, so many choices.

I would go wt. the Diamond plate.If you have one great,it doesn't have to be an expensive one.On the Artiflex you want to remove a fare amount of steel on the lower half of the blade.With a 120 plate you can use a crossing scratch pattern which removes steel effectively.Then to remove scratches something like a 500-700 grit stone works.Then you can polish it up with the stones you ordered.The problem wt. low grit stones is they dish quickly & you have a fair amount of steel to remove.If you do not have a plate get one they have multible uses,flattening whetstones, knife reprofile & repair.

I did a major thinning on a Artiflex Tall 240mm.Used a 140 Atoma & elbow grease.It is 50mm tall at the heel,I thinned halfway up the blade.It cuts way better with radical surgery.I have been using it alot since thinning,it holds a good edge,better than alot of stainless I have used.It is also easy to sharpen with the thin convex edge on it now.Peters does the HT for these blades.They are a respected industrial Heat Treatment Co.For Cultery they use a 3 step process with Cryo- freezing.

I even cut frozen fruit for my fruit smoothies wt. it.No chipping,good steel.The problem with the Artiflex is the factory Taper sucks so it is a project knife,but if you do not mind a major reprofile it deff. pays off.
 
I too am having great results on my AEB-L Artifex with some serious work using my DMT course stone. I've probably spend more than an hour working on the thinning and now it is a completely different knife. The steel is holding up great also after two weeks of daily cutting and still cuts very cleanly. A touch on the arm and hair just jumps off. Of course the real test is with food but I'm surprised at the edge holding so far.
 
I too am having great results on my AEB-L Artifex with some serious work using my DMT course stone. I've probably spend more than an hour working on the thinning and now it is a completely different knife. The steel is holding up great also after two weeks of daily cutting and still cuts very cleanly. A touch on the arm and hair just jumps off. Of course the real test is with food but I'm surprised at the edge holding so far.

Congratulations on the accomplishment. It truly is shameful though that a new knife needs this much work.

Cheers
 
I was surprized also,been cutting frozen fruit wt it every morning,I cook for others every night.It is not like cutting for hours at a job.Been using it almost a month & have not resharpened it yet.

Decided to rehandle it since I like the knife so much.Redesign to make handle little longer.Had to redrill one hole for Corby & center hole for Mosiac.Used a new solid carbide bit that usually goes right thru hardened steel.The AEB-L hardened tang was not an easy drill.With the edge holding & hardness of steel I feel the Heat Treatment on this blade is excellent.

Using African Blackwood wt nickle silver corby rivits & nickle silver mosiac.I can easy see why Custom makers like this steel.:knife:
 
I agree with MHLee about the deep scratches being difficult to remove, but so it goes.. automotive refinishing adhesive-backed 120 is nice to work with if you put it on a flat tile or glass or tablesaw... and you'll probably use 4 sheets or more (max hopefully 6?). THEN if you have access to a 1k-ish diamond, it could be good for removing scratches.. or on a regular 1k it might take 20 hard minutes.. perhaps this order would be best economically speaking.. every time I've put a wide bevel of steel to a diamond plate it has really taxed heavily. For very narrow bevels or flattening other stones I use my Atoma. I've even found chamferring edges of stones with the diamond plate to be detrimental, and use a (real) brick/other stones
 
This link might actually work

http://postimg.org/image/cma6nezdv/


Artifex_Before1.jpg




THis has got to be a joke. You could split wood with that. Dont waste time trying to fix....take it out to the wood shop.
 
Congratulations on the accomplishment. It truly is shameful though that a new knife needs this much work.

Cheers

Yes, it is truly an accomplishment to thin this knife :) I'll have to take pictures of what it looks like with the hours spent so far. Too bad that the grind is so bad because the steel is performing very well.
 
Gesshin 400 and diamond plates are great, but not cheap and you're going to put a lot of wear on them trying to grind all that steel down.
+1 For the recommendation to use coarse auto sandpaper or emery cloth to start with.

If you want to add convexing, you can to it by laying somthing like foam or rubber sheeting or a firm mouse pad under the sandpaper. You can find plenty of videos of guys doing that with hunting or bushcraft knives on youtube.


Another thing to consider here is that the HT can often be screwed up by the ape doing the finish grinding and sharpening if they're too chimp-aggressive and heat the steel up too much with friction. People often find that the steel's performance drastically improves once they remove some layers of this damaged metal at and behind the edge. So as long as you don't mind a "project" removing all the metal will improve the performance of your knife both in geometry and it edge taking and holding.

Take it slow and pay attention to what you're doing / the effect it has on cutting and you will come out of this project with a better understanding of what makes a good kitchen knife than the people that made and sold you this one.
 
I finally got around to start the thinning project last week. I was using p220 grit wetordry sandpaper I had. I used it wet on a pretty flat and lacquered piece of 1"x6" (having it wet was the only to keep it from sliding around). It was pretty slow in my opinion, spent maybe 30-40 minutes, used up probably 40-50% of the paper, thinning a good 3cm up the side of the blade. It still looks like a long way to go.

Is there any problem to use the rubber kitchen cabinet lining as backing for the paper, and dry? I'm okay with the convexing, but will any problems arise from thinning too extensively with soft backing? For me, that is the most efficient way to keep it from sliding around, and the ability to use dry paper.

I went to the automotive parts store, of the wetordry paper, the coarsest they have is the 200. They have non-wet coarser paper, may get that if it's okay to use dry with the rubber lining.

BTW, thanks for all the replies!
 
Artifex_Before1.jpg

THis has got to be a joke. You could split wood with that. Dont waste time trying to fix....take it out to the wood shop.

Holy crap. I couldn't get those pictures to load. That's insane. My all purpose, work/beater EDC is thinner behind the edge than that by over half...


I finally got around to start the thinning project last week. I was using p220 grit wetordry sandpaper I had. I used it wet on a pretty flat and lacquered piece of 1"x6" (having it wet was the only to keep it from sliding around). It was pretty slow in my opinion, spent maybe 30-40 minutes, used up probably 40-50% of the paper, thinning a good 3cm up the side of the blade. It still looks like a long way to go.

Is there any problem to use the rubber kitchen cabinet lining as backing for the paper, and dry? I'm okay with the convexing, but will any problems arise from thinning too extensively with soft backing? For me, that is the most efficient way to keep it from sliding around, and the ability to use dry paper.

I went to the automotive parts store, of the wetordry paper, the coarsest they have is the 200. They have non-wet coarser paper, may get that if it's okay to use dry with the rubber lining.

BTW, thanks for all the replies!

I'd defer to these guys when it comes to thinning by hand, as I use a belt sander myself. However, I'd suggest that you use a hard, flat backing for the majority of your work. This will help the paper cut better, and will also show you where your lines are more readily. Once you're close or even done with the actual thinning, use the soft backing to blend in the scratches and restore the convex shape.

Another suggestion is to use black sharpie to help you keep track of where you're abrading steel. Sometimes its really easy to get stir crazy and oversand somewhere you didn't intend to. Just draw some diagonal lines across the blade, and as they abrade away, redraw them in.

Something like this:
20130818_193523.jpg

20130818_194857.jpg


This is an extreme example of course, but you see what I mean.

Anyhow, I hope my comments were helpful. You've seriously got your hands full thinning that thing without power tools, lol.
 
I finally got around to start the thinning project last week. I was using p220 grit wetordry sandpaper I had.

Is there any problem to use the rubber kitchen cabinet lining as backing for the paper, and dry? I'm okay with the convexing, but will any problems arise from thinning too extensively with soft backing? For me, that is the most efficient way to keep it from sliding around, and the ability to use dry paper.

I went to the automotive parts store, of the wetordry paper, the coarsest they have is the 200. They have non-wet coarser paper, may get that if it's okay to use dry with the rubber lining.

BTW, thanks for all the replies!

The course the grit the faster it cuts. I wld imagine that using a wet mode .. you get less friction and better finish where else in dry mode.. more friction, more cutting provided that teh sandpaper is cleaned to remove the clogged pores. a) lightly tapping teh sand paper to loosen the trapped iron dust between the pores and getting rid of it from sandpaper.

What grit size to use depends how much steel you desire to remove adn how fast.. and how much pressure you apply.

Backing is for sturdiness adn safety. I usually put the knife flat on teh glass piece, with a twisting motion for teh edge to be fully flushed against the glass top ( so tht you do not cut yr fingers(s) adn use a small piece of sandpaper with a backing to remove steel as this gives me granular control where i wish to remove steel.

I suppose that you wld have to keep a steady eye on teh choil once in a while to know how much you have removed.. Check oftern enough so that you dont make it too thin.

Eventually you will get reach the thinness that you desire.

have fun.

rgds
d
 
yea you can't give up now!! pot odds, as they say.

You could use a spray adhesive to keep the paper from sliding. 3M/ home depot variety should do. Or you could spray the paper to the cabinet liner, though it's unclear how that would work, but probably better than nothing.

It's a barbaric task; get out the gorilla glue if you have to ;) Maybe the tape first actually would be better. Gorilla tape might have a chance to hold. Finally, you could mechanically clamp the paper to a cinderblock, maybe in conjunction with the cabinet liner. Just a couple C clamps and wood strips at the north/south ends should hold it. It will cramp your workspace but it would surely hold.

Good luck
 
You honestly would have been better off returning that knife it's a shame they even sold that knife as a Gyuto, however this is a good learning experience for sharpening.

The gesshin 400 is a great stone but does dish quickly for thinning jobs. I'd go with a diamond plate first to remove most metal. Then refine with 400 then 1k. Then use your sand paper to refinish the blade start with like 400 make sure to remove all scratches before going on to each new piece. I'd go up to like800- 1000 or so.
 
You honestly would have been better off returning that knife it's a shame they even sold that knife as a Gyuto, however this is a good learning experience for sharpening.

The gesshin 400 is a great stone but does dish quickly for thinning jobs. I'd go with a diamond plate first to remove most metal. Then refine with 400 then 1k. Then use your sand paper to refinish the blade start with like 400 make sure to remove all scratches before going on to each new piece. I'd go up to like800- 1000 or so.

I've come to the conclusion that if go through all that to get the Artifex up to the performance you want from it; you would have been better off buying a Carbonext.
This is from first hand experience...

9582526377_1aed33242e_b.jpg
 
Congratulations on the accomplishment. It truly is shameful though that a new knife needs this much work.

Cheers
There is a reason this knife is only $75 and not $175. I thinned some with the first sharpening and a little more with the second. It's a great knife now.
 
There is a reason this knife is only $75 and not $175. I thinned some with the first sharpening and a little more with the second. It's a great knife now.

The problem is not that it can't be fixed; it is that it is being sold as great for a beginner. No beginner wants to go through that just to get a knife that cuts. Many better knives (ready to use) for a small increase in price.

Cheers to you for fixing yours!
 

Latest posts

Back
Top