Questionnaire - A bit undecided on knife type

[awesomeweasel]

Hello!

Been mulling over grabbing a new knife for some time now, but can't make up my mind on what style I want to go for, and then which specific knife. I listed bunka, cleaver, and gyuto, though I would be fine with trying other styles as well. My main concern is just getting a nice knife, ideally a decent upgrade over my Ikazuchi in performance (though I like that knife a lot!) that can breeze through vegetables but gives me a bit more control at the tip. With my Ikazuchi it just feels like the knife is a bit too long for me to be as precise as I would like when using the tip, though I haven't had a whole bunch of knives so maybe this could be a geometry thing too. I appreciate any recommendations and comments!

LOCATION
What country are you in?
USA
KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in?
Bunka (Santoku?) or cleaver, maybe gyuto
Are you right or left handed?
Right
Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Japanese handle
What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
180mm to 240mm
Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
No
What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
$325
KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
At home
What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for?
Only for vegetable and fruit preparation, generally softer stuff but some denser things like sweet potatoes or squash.
What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Not really replacing, but Ikazuchi 240mm
Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
Pinch grip
What cutting motions do you primarily use?
Push cutting, slicing, a little pull cutting
What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

(Better aesthetics)
It'd be nice to get a knife with a nice finish (Nashiji, Migaki, maybe Kurouchi), but definitely not necessary. Also maybe something that could develop a nice patina, though again, not necessary.
Comfort
Not really concerned with this much, I find my Ikazuchi comfortable
(Ease of Use and Care)
Care is no problem. For ease of use, I like my Ikazuchi but feel like I lack precision at the tip for delicate tasks like finely mincing garlic, so I would like to get a knife that I feel like I could accomplish that with more easily, while still being able to handle larger vegetables.
Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
With using my knife only 15-30 minutes a day, I only feel the need to touch it up once every few months, so anything roughly similar should be fine, though longer would be nice of course.

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board?
Rubber (Hasegawa)
Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes
If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives?
Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
No
SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS

I'm not really sure what I should go for here, I've been looking at some bunkas and k-tip gyutos, but am a bit intimidated that I might break a more delicate tip like that, burying it into the board or something. I am careful with my knives but wouldn't want to feel as if I had to take care not to ruin it with every cut I make. (This could very well be overblown, I have no experience with those kind of knives.) I mentioned cleavers as well, I haven't used one before but if one would be up to the task, I would definitely be up for going that route as well. I do definitely like a laser so I'd probably want to go that way again, though I would be happy with something thicker at the spine as long as it was still nice and thin behind the edge.

 

[JASinIL2006]

A Konosuke HD2 210 gyuto wouldn’t be a bad place to start… nice and thin, semi-stainless, and the tip isn’t super-delicate.

 

[Blumbo]

I feel like if you could rustle up a used tetsujin kasumi 210 gyuto on BST you’d have a blast. A mid-weight laser that has never felt delicate on the board to me despite how well it cuts - and it develops a gorgeous patina. Per dollar spent it’s probably the best performing knife that I own.

 

[tostadas]

Kyohei Shindo in either a funayuki (kinda like gyuto/santoku) or bunka would be my recommendation. On the less expensive side, but very high performing due to the aggressive grind behind the edge. And unlike many thin lasers, these knives have nice thick spines out of the handle for comfortable grip. Cladding is very reactive, so if you can establish a vivid patina by starting off with some proteins as you break in the knife. The stock handles are trash, so take the opportunity to upgrade to a nicer handle that you like. All in, probably looking around $150 or so.

https://tokushuknife.com/collection...-shindo-blue-2-kurouchi-165mm-bunka-no-handle

 

[SwampDonkey]

+1 on Shindo. That bunka has an absurdly thin tip, best garlic/shallot knife I ever had. Mine wasn't particularly reactive but could be different batches of cladding. It's a little shorter at the heel than some other options but still plenty of knuckle room and is extremely nimble. His gyutos clock in around 220 mm if you want something a little bigger but still has that crazy thin tip. Good steel.

Another option I'm continously impressed with every time I pick it up: Shiro Kamo's Tora line. The 210 (215 measured) doesn't get quite as thin BTE as Shindo but it still feels quite lasery with fun geometry. Tall and stiff, if height matters to you and is one my favorite gyuto profiles. Not usually a damascus fan but this one makes a fun patina canvas.

If you want a stainless option, Shungo Ogata makes my personal favorite bunka profile. Tall and pretty flat till you get the tip sweep. Midweight laser, also not as thin BTE as Shindo but still moreso than many others you'll find and also an excellent shallot/garlic knife. Not as thick necked/comfortable as Shindo.

https://www.cleancut.eu/butik/knifetype/kiritsuke/bunka_ogata_takefu-3910-detail
Size compared to my Shindo

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[Jovidah]

Have you tried simply changing grip when you need more tip control? For example crimping up a bit more, and /or putting index finger on the spine?

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

This is the one:

https://tokushuknife.com/collection...omi-blue-2-kurouchi-170mm-nakiri-blade-only-1
Use code KKF15 at checkout for 15% off. Even if you don't love it, that's a real low investment. But that knife will do what you're describing quite well and be something different.

 

[awesomeweasel]

Oh wow, lots of nice suggestions here! That Shindo bunka is definitely an appealing option, especially the idea of upgrading the handle haha; will also keep an eye on the funayuki and gyuto as well. I honestly like all of these suggestions, I'll be keeping an eye on BST for a tetsujin kasumi 210 too. As for changing grip, I have choked up on the blade a bit and kept my index finger on the spine when using the tip more and that does help some, I just feel slower than I would like (which I'm sure will improve with practice)

 

[SwampDonkey]

Oh wow, lots of nice suggestions here! That Shindo bunka is definitely an appealing option, especially the idea of upgrading the handle haha; will also keep an eye on the funayuki and gyuto as well. I honestly like all of these suggestions, I'll be keeping an eye on BST for a tetsujin kasumi 210 too. As for changing grip, I have choked up on the blade a bit and kept my index finger on the spine when using the tip more and that does help some, I just feel slower than I would like (which I'm sure will improve with practice)

Forgive me if this is obvious, I don't mean to come off as patronizing just find pics helpful to make sure we're on the same page:

Since big knife brainworms have taken over I use a 240 for pretty much everything. Here is my standard pinch on a Munetoshi 245. I realize after the fact that a patterned board is hard to see spine against...sorry.

I choke up by slipping middle knuckle into the choil where index normally goes and pinching further up the blade and honestly find it super comfortable, had to break myself of the habit of doing it too much subconsciously and shortening all my knives. Looking at the spine of Munetoshi compared to the 200 mm knife next to it they're pretty close.

Are you choking up like that or a different method? Trying to put my index finger on the spine of a big knife feels awkward and less in control but could just be me.

 

[awesomeweasel]

No, not patronizing at all! I understand what you mean, and yeah I choke up exactly like you showed, I tend to favor that over using my index finger on the spine most of the time for the same reason you described, but I bounce between them a little bit.

 

[awesomeweasel]

No, not patronizing at all! I understand what you mean, and yeah I choke up exactly like you showed, I tend to favor that over using my index finger on the spine most of the time for the same reason you described, but I bounce between them a little bit.

I should add to this that I'm definitely not opposed to a 240, I wonder maybe if I would benefit from a bit of a heavier knife in this situation, or one with a bit of a less pronounced curve at the tip. Sometimes when doing something like mincing garlic I'll notice I didn't really make full contact with the board so then I'll just mow through it nearer the heel where the blade isn't as curved (Maybe in this situation I should be more deliberately push cutting rather than almost chopping?)

 

[SwampDonkey]

I should add to this that I'm definitely not opposed to a 240, I wonder maybe if I would benefit from a bit of a heavier knife in this situation, or one with a bit of a less pronounced curve at the tip. Sometimes when doing something like mincing garlic I'll notice I didn't really make full contact with the board so then I'll just mow through it nearer the heel where the blade isn't as curved (Maybe in this situation I should be more deliberately push cutting rather than almost chopping?)

I actually like nakiri for my "smaller" knives for this exact reason. People get caught up on not having a tip but the rounded tip of a nakiri is still sharp and is perfect for this kind of work without having to lift your elbow up so much because its a flat or mostly flat profile. @HumbleHomeCook was right to suggest one, I've sold all my bunkas but have a several 170-180 mm rectangles.

 

[awesomeweasel]

I actually like nakiri for my "smaller" knives for this exact reason. People get caught up on not having a tip but the rounded tip of a nakiri is still sharp and is perfect for this kind of work without having to lift your elbow up so much because its a flat or mostly flat profile. @HumbleHomeCook was right to suggest one, I've sold all my bunkas but have a several 170-180 mm rectangles.

That's good to know, I think that sort of shape is what pushed me towards mentioning a cleaver, I hesitated on mentioning a nakiri because of concern that the tip wouldn't be sufficient. If that isn't much of an issue in practice I would definitely go that route, I really like how they look and I think I would have a good time with a flatter profile like that.

 

[Benuser]

I should add to this that I'm definitely not opposed to a 240, I wonder maybe if I would benefit from a bit of a heavier knife in this situation, or one with a bit of a less pronounced curve at the tip. Sometimes when doing something like mincing garlic I'll notice I didn't really make full contact with the board so then I'll just mow through it nearer the heel where the blade isn't as curved (Maybe in this situation I should be more deliberately push cutting rather than almost chopping?)

Some Japanese gyutos do have a spear point, but a slightly lower one is more common and more convenient. You might consider moving your grip forward. It helped me with large blades: a claw grip only touching the spine.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I actually like nakiri for my "smaller" knives for this exact reason. People get caught up on not having a tip but the rounded tip of a nakiri is still sharp and is perfect for this kind of work without having to lift your elbow up so much because its a flat or mostly flat profile. @HumbleHomeCook was right to suggest one, I've sold all my bunkas but have a several 170-180 mm rectangles.

That's good to know, I think that sort of shape is what pushed me towards mentioning a cleaver, I hesitated on mentioning a nakiri because of concern that the tip wouldn't be sufficient. If that isn't much of an issue in practice I would definitely go that route, I really like how they look and I think I would have a good time with a flatter profile like that.

I had a time there when I was enamored with the look of bunkas and owned a few. In the end, I much prefer nakiri. I don't have issues fine mincing garlic and shallots with a nakiri, you just need to understand the relationship between the end of the spine and the end of the edge. Not a big deal. I also really like the flat nose for moving things around the board. The full length spine allows for two-hand rock chopping or a little steadying/pressure whereas the bunka makes that pretty limited.

I mean, nakiri are, after all, "vegetable knives". I really like nakiri. I still haven't warmed up fully to cleavers and many cleaver folks feel the same about nakiri. They look similar but are quite different in use.

Besides, you'd be all ready for ARM24.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/all-rectangle-march.63694/

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Shindo.

 

[awesomeweasel]

I had a time there when I was enamored with the look of bunkas and owned a few. In the end, I much prefer nakiri. I don't have issues fine mincing garlic and shallots with a nakiri, you just need to understand the relationship between the end of the spine and the end of the edge. Not a big deal. I also really like the flat nose for moving things around the board. The full length spine allows for two-hand rock chopping or a little steadying/pressure whereas the bunka makes that pretty limited.

I mean, nakiri are, after all, "vegetable knives". I really like nakiri. I still haven't warmed up fully to cleavers and many cleaver folks feel the same about nakiri. They look similar but are quite different in use.

Besides, you'd be all ready for ARM24.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/all-rectangle-march.63694/

I'm glad to hear fine mincing isn't any issue with a nakiri, and also your comment about two-handed rock chopping because I do that once in awhile with my Ikazuchi (I am very cautious not to put lateral strain on the edge, or atleast think I am doing it right!) but it feels a little awkward with a curved profile like that.

That Shindo is very appealing, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on the handle? It would be in budget for me to replace it with an octagonal handle like on my current knife, but if its good as it is, I might not bother.

 

[tostadas]

I'm glad to hear fine mincing isn't any issue with a nakiri, and also your comment about two-handed rock chopping because I do that once in awhile with my Ikazuchi (I am very cautious not to put lateral strain on the edge, or atleast think I am doing it right!) but it feels a little awkward with a curved profile like that.

That Shindo is very appealing, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on the handle? It would be in budget for me to replace it with an octagonal handle like on my current knife, but if its good as it is, I might not bother.

As is, the handle is terrible. It works, but it feels extremely cheap. Even replacing it with the most basic wa handle will be an upgrade over what it comes with.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I'm glad to hear fine mincing isn't any issue with a nakiri, and also your comment about two-handed rock chopping because I do that once in awhile with my Ikazuchi (I am very cautious not to put lateral strain on the edge, or atleast think I am doing it right!) but it feels a little awkward with a curved profile like that.

That Shindo is very appealing, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on the handle? It would be in budget for me to replace it with an octagonal handle like on my current knife, but if its good as it is, I might not bother.

As is, the handle is terrible. It works, but it feels extremely cheap. Even replacing it with the most basic wa handle will be an upgrade over what it comes with.

Our friend @tostadas is something of a handle connoisseur and a maker of extremely nice handles. As you can see, he has strong opinions on the subject.

Me? I don't hate it. He is right that it does have a cheapy feel, especially with the plastic ferrule. On the plus side, it is light so it keeps the balance more forward. But, since it is in your budget, I'd agree to get an upgrade. @TokushuKnife are forum sponsors and frequent the site. Give Tony and the team a call or shoot them an email. Great folks and they'll help you decide on something just right. Tell them this is your first nakiri and ask if they'll inspect one and ensure everything is straight.

 

[Jovidah]

Forgive me if this is obvious, I don't mean to come off as patronizing just find pics helpful to make sure we're on the same page:

Since big knife brainworms have taken over I use a 240 for pretty much everything. Here is my standard pinch on a Munetoshi 245. I realize after the fact that a patterned board is hard to see spine against...sorry.
View attachment 287928View attachment 287929

I choke up by slipping middle knuckle into the choil where index normally goes and pinching further up the blade and honestly find it super comfortable, had to break myself of the habit of doing it too much subconsciously and shortening all my knives. Looking at the spine of Munetoshi compared to the 200 mm knife next to it they're pretty close.

View attachment 287930
View attachment 287931





Are you choking up like that or a different method? Trying to put my index finger on the spine of a big knife feels awkward and less in control but could just be me.

My choking up method can go even further; basically pinching between thumb and middle finger while stretching out the index finger on the spine. If that doesn't fix your tip control I don't think anything will.

Personally I think lighter knives make tip control easier, but I'm not sure if that's an universally shared opinion.

 

[tostadas]

Our friend @tostadas is something of a handle connoisseur and a maker of extremely nice handles. As you can see, he has strong opinions on the subject.

Me? I don't hate it. He is right that it does have a cheapy feel, especially with the plastic ferrule. On the plus side, it is light so it keeps the balance more forward. But, since it is in your budget, I'd agree to get an upgrade. @TokushuKnife are forum sponsors and frequent the site. Give Tony and the team a call or shoot them an email. Great folks and they'll help you decide on something just right. Tell them this is your first nakiri and ask if they'll inspect one and ensure everything is straight.

Haha yes, I am extremely picky about handles so take my opinion with a grain of salt. Here's the one I removed from my Kyohei Shindo. It has plastic ferrule with noticeable steps at both the transition point and the front. The wood on the body has a shiny coating that feels like maybe a lacquer of some sort. The shape is ovalish, which works just fine and is relatively comfortable. It's also kinda lopsided, so aesthetically it bothers me to no end. But you can come to your own conclusion. If you're good with it, that would save you some extra cash.

 

[awesomeweasel]

As is, the handle is terrible. It works, but it feels extremely cheap. Even replacing it with the most basic wa handle will be an upgrade over what it comes with.

Our friend @tostadas is something of a handle connoisseur and a maker of extremely nice handles. As you can see, he has strong opinions on the subject.

Me? I don't hate it. He is right that it does have a cheapy feel, especially with the plastic ferrule. On the plus side, it is light so it keeps the balance more forward. But, since it is in your budget, I'd agree to get an upgrade. @TokushuKnife are forum sponsors and frequent the site. Give Tony and the team a call or shoot them an email. Great folks and they'll help you decide on something just right. Tell them this is your first nakiri and ask if they'll inspect one and ensure everything is straight.

Good to know! I've got a couple weeks before I'd be making a purchase (fingers crossed things will stay in stock!) so I'll have time to think things over but this will probably be the way I go then, a Shindo Nakiri and a better handle to go with it. I'm very appreciative of all the input, very happy to be in this community now

 

[tostadas]

Good to know! I've got a couple weeks before I'd be making a purchase (fingers crossed things will stay in stock!) so I'll have time to think things over but this will probably be the way I go then, a Shindo Nakiri and a better handle to go with it. I'm very appreciative of all the input, very happy to be in this community now

The cheapest handle options at Tokushu are only like $30, and they'll install it for you which is an amazing deal. That would be my choice if I were in your shoes.

 

[awesomeweasel]

The cheapest handle options at Tokushu are only like $30, and they'll install it for you which is an amazing deal. That would be my choice if I were in your shoes.

Oh that's fantastic, I will definitely go for that.

 

[SwampDonkey]

Good to know! I've got a couple weeks before I'd be making a purchase (fingers crossed things will stay in stock!) so I'll have time to think things over but this will probably be the way I go then, a Shindo Nakiri and a better handle to go with it. I'm very appreciative of all the input, very happy to be in this community now

My very first Japanese knife was a Shindo nakiri with an upgraded oak handle and sent me down the rabbit hole. A few thousand $ later and it's still one of my favorites. Definitely worth the handle swapout though, the plastic oval ones can get slippery when wet.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I'm glad to hear fine mincing isn't any issue with a nakiri, and also your comment about two-handed rock chopping because I do that once in awhile with my Ikazuchi (I am very cautious not to put lateral strain on the edge, or atleast think I am doing it right!) but it feels a little awkward with a curved profile like that.

That Shindo is very appealing, I'm curious if you have any thoughts on the handle? It would be in budget for me to replace it with an octagonal handle like on my current knife, but if its good as it is, I might not bother.

Just a quick follow-up... If you get the Shindo, it is quite thin at the edge so use it with a light hand for a bit, especially any two-hand stuff. It's good to read that you understand the potential hazards of lateral stresses. Just get to know the knife as it is likely a fair different than what you're accustomed to using.

In no way is that meant to be alarmist or scare you off of them, I still very much stand behind the recommendation. Just something to be conscious of is all.

 

[awesomeweasel]

Just a quick follow-up... If you get the Shindo, it is quite thin at the edge so use it with a light hand for a bit, especially any two-hand stuff. It's good to read that you understand the potential hazards of lateral stresses. Just get to know the knife as it is likely a fair different than what you're accustomed to using.

In no way is that meant to be alarmist or scare you off of them, I still very much stand behind the recommendation. Just something to be conscious of is all.

I understand, I will keep that in mind.

 

[awesomeweasel]

Oh man, I am very happy with this recommendation! Just arrived today and it is so fun to cut with, it's probably going to be the only knife I touch for a bit

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Oh man, I am very happy with this recommendation! Just arrived today and it is so fun to cut with, it's probably going to be the only knife I touch for a bit

Congrats! Really glad you're enjoying it. You're all set for ARM in a couple months.

 

[tostadas]

Oh man, I am very happy with this recommendation! Just arrived today and it is so fun to cut with, it's probably going to be the only knife I touch for a bit

That looks lovely!