Quick 210 shoot out - Denka vs. Kochi vs. Toyama vs. Tanaka

[ma_sha1]

Not in the mood for reviews, just a cutting shoot out on the four 210s I’ve got, two of them just came in & they are all well known.

Not just carrots, I did potato’s too, woopty doo!
I also don’t care about food separation much, they all are pretty good, sticks just a little but nothing major, so the shoot out is for cutting.

Carrot cuts:

I got thick 1.25” diameter carrots. All these are already great knives, none of them wedged.

Kochi is very thin behind edge, & has a concave grind making it even thinner. But it’s the only one that I felt a little resistance going through the carrot, no idea why. I was kind of surprised, I think it was the winner in a recent carrot cutting video.

The others went right through, with Tanaka Sekiso the easiest, almost no resistance. Another surprise, because Tanaka is the cheapest of the bunch.


Potato cuts:

Very easy for all of them, the 3rd surprise here was that Kochi, who lost on carrots, overtook Denka & Toyama on the potato cut. Given that potato is easier to cut than carrot, I think carrot cutting is more important thou.

Tanaka won again, it’s got to be the grind. The Tanaka is thinner, but so is my Kurosaki & it doesn’t kick ass like this Tanaka Sekiso. I wonder if the full spine-to-edge convex grind made the difference? As Kochi, Toyama, & Denka all have the bevel grind starts half way, so the angle approaching the edge is larger. The only other knife I’ve had with full convex grind going from spine to edge was Kato WH & it already out cut my Toyama even with much thicker spine. Imagine a Kato but half the thickness? That’s the Tanaka Sekiso B2 dammy, it totally kicked ass.

The only thing I wish for is a bit heavier (it’s only 151g even with the metal bolster I installed during Yo handle conversion)

I think my ideal 210 knife would be Toyama (185g) with full convex grind that goes from spine to edge, not starts bevel half way of the height. Anyone knows what other Gyutos have spine to edge full convex grind?

Cutting Summary:

Tanaka > Denka > Toyama > Kochi
Tanaka > Kochi > Denka > Toyama

1st picture left to right: Kochi, Denka, Toyama, Tanaka

 

[JBroida]

wide bevel knives will almost always wedge more in tall/dense foods than wide bevels. Wide bevels tend to have better food release and make thinning easier. Its a pretty common finding for anyone that tests things like this. Glad you took the time to do this. I have similar discussions with makers in japan when i ask for wide bevels. Some will ask "why?" and talk about how thinner knives with subtlevconvexing from spine to edge move through food more easily, so i have to explain the desires for improved food release, ease of sharpening and maintenance, etc.

 

[labor of love]

What potato did you use? What size?

 

[panda]

my denka is a turd at cutting carrots, it's actually quite annoying. but i dont consider carrot cutting that big a deal. i find food sticking to the blade way more irritating than wedging.

 

[ma_sha1]

wide bevel knives will almost always wedge more in tall/dense foods than wide bevels. Wide bevels tend to have better food release and make thinning easier. Its a pretty common finding for anyone that tests things like this. Glad you took the time to do this. I have similar discussions with makers in japan when i ask for wide bevels. Some will ask "why?" and talk about how thinner knives with subtlevconvexing from spine to edge move through food more easily, so i have to explain the desires for improved food release, ease of sharpening and maintenance, etc.

Hi Jon,

Thanks for chiming in. Just so I understand the terms you used:

Wide bevel knife = knives with visible bevel that’s pretty wide, like Kochi, Denka or Toyama which is hidden?

Wide bevels = knives with full convex grind spine to edge?

 

[Corradobrit1]

my denka is a turd at cutting carrots, it's actually quite annoying. but i dont consider carrot cutting that big a deal. i find food sticking to the blade way more irritating than wedging.

I thought Panda's only eat bamboo.

 

[ma_sha1]

What potato did you use? What size?

It’s big russet potato 5-6”

 

[ma_sha1]

my denka is a turd at cutting carrots, it's actually quite annoying. but i dont consider carrot cutting that big a deal. i find food sticking to the blade way more irritating than wedging.

Were your Denka thinned? This one has been seriously thinned by previous owner with Jnats, it looks as tall & as thin as Toyama but a bit heavier.

 

[Corradobrit1]

Were your Denka thinned? This one has been seriously thinned by previous owner with Jnats, it looks as tall & as thin as Toyama but a bit heavier.

Lucky. Thats exactly how you want them. THIN

 

[ian]

wide bevel knives will almost always wedge more in tall/dense foods than wide bevels

Hi John,

Thanks for chiming in. Just so I understand the terms you used:

Wide bevel knife = knives with visible bevel that’s pretty wide, like Kochi, Denka or Toyama which is hidden?

Wide bevels = knives with full convex grind spine to edge?

I think Jon meant in the first sentence to say that wide bevel knives wedge more than NON wide bevels.

Kochi, Denka are wide bevels. Toyama is not, though.

 

[lemeneid]

Were your Denka thinned? This one has been seriously thinned by previous owner with Jnats, it looks as tall & as thin as Toyama but a bit heavier.

If it is as tall and thin as Toyama, it’s still “fat”

Denkas should come in like this.

But in any case, not all knives need to be super thin. Fat knives have their place and role in the kitchen too!

 

[JBroida]

Hi John,

Thanks for chiming in. Just so I understand the terms you used:

Wide bevel knife = knives with visible bevel that’s pretty wide, like Kochi, Denka or Toyama which is hidden?

Wide bevels = knives with full convex grind spine to edge?

wide bevel knives are those with a defined shinogi line and bevels that can be sharpened like the fronts of single bevel knives

they can have convex bevels too, but i was comparing them to relatively thin knives with subtle convexing from spine to edge (some examples include the gesshin ginga series, en, gesshin kagero, ikazuchi, ryusen knives, etc.)

 

[JBroida]

I think Jon meant in the first sentence to say that wide bevel knives wedge more than NON wide bevels.

Kochi, Denka are wide bevels. Toyama is not, though.

sorry if i had typos in there... its been a crazy time over here in LA. Shoudl have read wide bevels have better food release while subtle convexed knives (when thin enough) move through food more easily

 

[Corradobrit1]

If it is as tall and thin as Toyama, it’s still “fat”

Denkas should come in like this.
View attachment 82453

But in any case, not all knives need to be super thin. Fat knives have their place and role in the kitchen too!

Snap

 

[ian]

Hi John,

Thanks for chiming in. Just so I understand the terms you used:

Wide bevel knife = knives with visible bevel that’s pretty wide, like Kochi, Denka or Toyama which is hidden?

Wide bevels = knives with full convex grind spine to edge?

Expanding on Jon’s comment, I guess the definition of a wide bevel is having a ‘shinogi line’, which on the Kochi and Denka is the line of transition between the visible bevel and the rest of the knife. This sharp change in angle gives good food release, since product moving up the blade will tend to fall off as it moves over the shinogi line. And it makes maintenance easier since it’s then easier to sharpen just the part below the shinogi without screwing up the finish on the part above. The ‘wide bevel’ below the shinogi can be convex, concave or flat, but it’s usually a somewhat uniform geometry, so that you can just sharpen the whole bevel (using a hamaguri technique if it’s convex), thus moving the wide bevel up the blade while more or less preserving its geometry.

(this comment is more for myself than you... nice thread, btw.)

 

[ma_sha1]

sorry if i had typos in there... its been a crazy time over here in LA. Shoudl have read wide bevels have better food release while subtle convexed knives (when thin enough) move through food more easily

Thanks Jon,

Now it’s clear, that explains why the Kato cut so well even though it’s got super thick spine & this why this Tanaka caught me by surprise.

I’ll be looking for this type of knives, since I don’t care about food release as long as it’s not overly sticky. I actually likes that potato slices stick to my Toyama, food transport without havIng to scoop them up.

 

[NO ChoP!]

Cut a case of butternut squash and food release will become a huge priority.

 

[Up_dog128]

I actually likes that potato slices stick to my Toyama, food transport without havIng to scoop them up.

This is exactly why I like an extra long tall nakiri to have poor food release.
Otherwise, food release is pretty important to me. And while a agree with the concepts/generalizations above, my experience has shown me that the relationship between grind, wedging, & food release is more subtle. I've got one knife with a pronounced convex grind where food often falls away immediately and doesn't even start to climb the blade. But then I've had a couple of thin knives with wide bevels (like kurosaki) where food really wants to stick to the primary bevel, but then doesn't always release upon hitting the shinogi

 

[panda]

This is exactly why I like an extra long tall nakiri to have poor food release.
Otherwise, food release is pretty important to me. And while a agree with the concepts/generalizations above, my experience has shown me that the relationship between grind, wedging, & food release is more subtle. I've got one knife with a pronounced convex grind where food often falls away immediately and doesn't even start to climb the blade. But then I've had a couple of thin knives with wide bevels (like kurosaki) where food really wants to stick to the primary bevel, but then doesn't always release upon hitting the shinogi

Wet foods stick really bad on flat bevels

 

[Corradobrit1]

And if the blade is highly polished

 

[Garm]

@ma_sha1 : One day I'm going to commission a handle from you.
I normally steer clear of custom handles, often gaudy and exotic, and they tend to detract focus from the blade itsef which should be the star. You seem to find that balance very naturally(or very deliberately). Either way is a skill set.
That Tanaka looks great, and I've already let my opinions on your Toyama come through.

 

[ma_sha1]

Hi Gram,

I am very flattered. However, It’s strictly a hobby for me, I won’t be taking custom orders. This goes way back to my past hobbies where I tinker & make custom mods, but have never taken a custom order. Taking orders will turn it into a “job” for me which is the very thing I try to escape from with the hobby.

I do appreciate your kind words, & it makes me happy to know that others can see the thoughts I put into the tinkering. They are indeed deliberate thoughts I put into achieving an ideal balance in my eyes.

 

[Garm]

Hi Gram,

I am very flattered. However, It’s strictly a hobby for me, I won’t be taking custom orders. This goes way back to my past hobbies where I tinker & make custom mods, but have never taken a custom order. Taking orders will turn it into a “job” for me which is the very thing I try to escape from with the hobby.

I do appreciate your kind words, & it makes me happy to know that others can see the thoughts I put into the tinkering. They are indeed deliberate thoughts I put into achieving an ideal balance in my eyes.

Yeah I understand completely. Never turn a source of joy into a chore.
I'll just keep my eyes open for your listings in the BST section in the future. Perhaps even "borrow" an idea or two if I go he custom handle route one day.

 

[lemeneid]

Wet foods stick really bad on flat bevels

Never had much of a sticking problem on my Toyama

 

[panda]

Never had much of a sticking problem on my Toyama

Toyama are convex.

 

[ma_sha1]

Most knives I’ve tried are not flat, sticking problems were minor.

Only one knife I had With monster sticking was a Yoshihiro Nakiri hammarred finish vg10 Damascus, mirror polish. Stunning beauty.

Potato slices stuck so bad that I couldn’t push them off, it’s like super glued on there, lol. But for the most part, the Jknife makers solved them sufficiently.

 

[adam92]

wide bevel knives will almost always wedge more in tall/dense foods than wide bevels. Wide bevels tend to have better food release and make thinning easier. Its a pretty common finding for anyone that tests things like this. Glad you took the time to do this. I have similar discussions with makers in japan when i ask for wide bevels. Some will ask "why?" and talk about how thinner knives with subtlevconvexing from spine to edge move through food more easily, so i have to explain the desires for improved food release, ease of sharpening and maintenance, etc.

I like to sharpen wide bevel now, liked my Yoshimi kato gyuto, easier to thinning, better food release.