R2 gyuto as daily driver?

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josemartinlopez

josemartinlopez

我會買所有的獨角獸
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I've been thinking about a stainless gyuto about 240 - 300 mm long as a daily driver at home, for the days when you don't want to be fussy about cleaning up even if it's not pro use. It seems like R2 is a popular choice here for this.

How do the different popular R2 gyutos compare? And, stupid question, what can these not do such that someone would still use a non-stainless as this kind of daily driver?
 
For a 240mm gyuto R2 daily driver the Ryusen blazen and Takamura HSPS pro come to mind, though not inexpensive. I have yet to use one but I belive they are fairly robust knives for being made with R2, having thicker spines.
 
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If I spent $900 on a Tanaka ironwood it would have to be my daily driver...tempted...
 
I am using a R2 gyoto as daily driver. I bought it for the same reasons as you are. Some people argue that R2 feels more fragile than other steels. I own a Kurosaki and apart from the OOTB edge it never chipped on me. It does feel a bit fragile but I think that is more to the fact that mine is a laser or near laser.
It does stay sharp and sharpening is not an issue. And I still have a lot to learn when it comes to sharpening.
I would also think Takamura, I also considered a Shibata, it has a nice pointy tip that I liked. And from what I know SRS13 is a very similar steel that is being used by Takeshi Saji quite bit.
 
VincentBeek said:
It does feel a bit fragile but I think that is more to the fact that mine is a laser or near laser.
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Haha, my exact reaction the first time I held a Japanese knife, and I recall it was a thinner, lighter one at that.

Which R2s do you use and can you compare different daily drivers?
 
The cost of the steel itself is not a huge part of the cost of the knife- the skill, labour and expendables that go into heat treating, shaping/grinding and finishing the knife are.

Ryusen Blazen is an excellent knife. Mkderately thin, convex grind. Moderately expensive but still excellent value for money. Wait until JKI or KnS has them back in stock rather than paying Burrfection's higher prices (bonus is that you in either case, you get to support a vendor who has been a long term supporter of the KKF). If buying from KnS, also look at the Ryusen Supergold line. Similar (?same?) Grind as Blazen with a lower (bur still very acceptable) level of fit and finish (you likely won't notice the difference after your first thinning and refinishing session) for a bit less coin. Handles on the Blazen are a little more elegant, although the finish on the SG handles is fine. Might need to take a bit of sandpaper to the spine and choil on the SGs, though.

I haven't used a Takamura. However they are often recommend by those who have used them. I believe the red handled ones are laser thin, while the black handled ones are not quite that thin.

Also look at:

Kurosaki Shizuku (stout spine, thin edge).

Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminagashi (convex, tall middleweight with a subtle damascus cladding) or the KnS Shinko Kurokumo, with a nicer handle and finish.

Tanaka R2 is quite nice. The Wa handled ones aren't too much more exxie but the ironwood yo handled ones are getting difficult to find and quite pricey. I believe the blade is similar between the two. It's a middlewight with a very textured damascus. Earlier versions are said to have been lasers.

Also look at SRS15, which performs very similarly to SG2/R2. Mine is Akifusa, which is a fairly thin knife. JKI sells Kagero. The Kagero I saw had been rehandled, and I am not sure if the blade wad stock or refinished. The blade, spine and choil were much more nicely finished than my Akifusa was (I have since done a lot of work on my Akifusa).

I haven't used Kurosaki Shenko but I understand that it is a very thin knife, almost laser like.
 
Also, don't treat these knives as though they don't need to be looked after. Although technically "stainless", these steels have a lower free Cr than you would think because of the high C content. Don't leave them dirty and wet for hours on end. Don't soak them. Don't use the diswasher.
 
I'm open but mentioned PM specifically as they are harder but still tough, and a great starting point for a discussion on daily drivers.

Yes, I hand wash or have someone hand wash my knives and am not a dishwasher kind of guy.
 
SG2 is usually hardened (mostly ex-facory IIRC) to around 63. Srs15 more like 65.

Once hardness is enough to stop an edge rolling (I'm guessing 60ish, depending on edge acuity), carbide structure is probably more important for edge retention than hardness. Besides, these types of steel are limited in their edge acuity by those same carbides (carbide pull-out). They also tend to increase brittleness but unless you mistreat your knives, that is usually not an issue.

I'd have a look at some ginsanko knives. Tanaka nashiji is a good starting point.

AEBL (Swedish razor steel) is a nice steel but not too many Japanese makers use it. A few western makers do, and some use Nitro-V, which has somewhat similar properties. Many Japanese makers use other grades (mostly coarser than AEBL's very fine grain) of Swedish stainless (Misono comes to mind).

There is a whole debate around VG10 and whether it is pain to sharpen and deburr. You will hear differing opinions. I've never sharpened it, so can't comment but my takeaway is that heat treatment is super important, so buy a maker recognised for a good VG10 HT. Ryusen (who did Hattori HT IIRC), Tanaka and Saji are renowned as doing a decent VG10 HT.

I should add that it's worth looking at Sukenari's offerings in SG2 and ginsanko.
 
I use a Takamura and Shibata Kotetsu in my daily rotation - both are R2 lasers. The Takamura edge is so thin OOTB though that you can feel it bite into the cutting board and I saw some microchips even after light use. It hasn't been as bad after sharpening, likely because my angle isn't as acute.

I'm a big fan of Ashi Ginga for an AEB-L knife - although it's also very thin, the edge doesn't feel as delicate as the Takamura. Plus the Ginga lineup covers all knife shpaes and sizes (210 petty, 180 nakiri, etc) which makes finding a complementary knife an easy buy.
 
My Kurosaki R2 240 gyuto is rather thick at the spine but thin at the edge. Feels like a tank, no need to baby it, and I have never had any chipping problems with it. Would wholeheartedly recommend, if R2 is what you're after. He does seem to grind them a bit thinner and higher these days, though.
 
I heard that SG2/R2 isn't getting a lot of benefits from forging. Generally, SG2, even though the HRC is higher than VG10, it could hold a higher degree angle and not as chippy as VG10.
josemartinlopez said:
How do the different popular R2 gyutos compare? And, stupid question, what can these not do such that someone would still use a non-stainless as this kind of daily driver?
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How they feel on the stone and how Jnats react with steel is why people still go for carbon. Also, people love patina

Makoto Kurosaki Sakura is also one of the nicest SG2 gyuto ever, you might want to check it out
 
I have ended up migrating to all powder steel daily drivers and have had no issues whatsoever with chipping. Honestly, I am thrilled with the significant reduction in knife maintenance. I use a Makoto Kurosaki SG2 for laser type applications, a Gesshin Kagero srs-15 for stouter work. and a Gihei Hap40 as my board knife during service. My sharpening skills have not reached the level where I can settle into a zen like peace, my sessions are always sort of nerve racking as I don't want to duck-up my good knives. With the HSPS steels I usually just strop them on treated leather at the end of each day and they seem good for what seems like months. As soon as I feel some resistance on a pepper skin, I give them a couple of strokes on a 6K stone and they are just as smooth as they were fresh off the stones. Both the SG2 and SRS15 seem completely stainless, the HAP40 displays a slight patina on the exposed core steel.

There is nothing I am afraid to tackle, including a tightly packed cabbage and butternut. Now admittedly I don't have to break down chicken or handle anything else that has bones or is frozen. I might be tempted to break out a beater for those sorts of things.
 
I'm an R2 fanboy though quite like other PM steels as well. One caution: if you get the red handled Takamuras, put a micro bevel on them or risk lots of microchipping. They are true lasers - very thin and are around 22° (11° per side) IIRC. Any side torque on the board will cause chips without a micro bevel. That said, they sharpen easily and removing the micro chips is very easy.

Can't speak for their HSPS Pro range as I haven't used them but they look a bit thicker. Their Uchigumo/Suminigashi range has no such issues.
 
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The Takefu guys seem to take sg2 to ~62hrc, as so maybe to alleviate some microchipping? Also, they seem to grind very thin. My Yoshimi Kato is definitely a laser, but it has it's place. Tanaka is a bit harder, and I've only seen a few microchips. Also, a bit more convexity. I like the Shiro Kamo; it has added height, a nice profile, a pronounced etch, but not so much that it grabs; which is common with deep etched damascus sg2.

Also, to answer your question why anyone would choose carbon over a PM steel. It is said sg2 wil lose it's initial 100% sharp and hold at 90% forever. But many of us desire that 100%, and it's just so easy to obtain on the likes of shirogami.
 
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Nemo said:
The cost of the steel itself is not a huge part of the cost of the knife- the skill, labour and expendables that go into heat treating, shaping/grinding and finishing the knife are.

Ryusen Blazen is an excellent knife. Mkderately thin, convex grind. Moderately expensive but still excellent value for money. Wait until JKI or KnS has them back in stock rather than paying Burrfection's higher prices (bonus is that you in either case, you get to support a vendor who has been a long term supporter of the KKF). If buying from KnS, also look at the Ryusen Supergold line. Similar (?same?) Grind as Blazen with a lower (bur still very acceptable) level of fit and finish (you likely won't notice the difference after your first thinning and refinishing session) for a bit less coin. Handles on the Blazen are a little more elegant, although the finish on the SG handles is fine. Might need to take a bit of sandpaper to the spine and choil on the SGs, though.

I haven't used a Takamura. However they are often recommend by those who have used them. I believe the red handled ones are laser thin, while the black handled ones are not quite that thin.

Also look at:

Kurosaki Shizuku (stout spine, thin edge).

Shiro Kamo Syousin Suminagashi (convex, tall middleweight with a subtle damascus cladding) or the KnS Shinko Kurokumo, with a nicer handle and finish.

Tanaka R2 is quite nice. The Wa handled ones aren't too much more exxie but the ironwood yo handled ones are getting difficult to find and quite pricey. I believe the blade is similar between the two. It's a middlewight with a very textured damascus. Earlier versions are said to have been lasers.

Also look at SRS15, which performs very similarly to SG2/R2. Mine is Akifusa, which is a fairly thin knife. JKI sells Kagero. The Kagero I saw had been rehandled, and I am not sure if the blade wad stock or refinished. The blade, spine and choil were much more nicely finished than my Akifusa was (I have since done a lot of work on my Akifusa).

I haven't used Kurosaki Shenko but I understand that it is a very thin knife, almost laser like.
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Where did you get your Akifusa?
I have a 210 gyuto from Epic Edge, great knife. Seems like there are lots of variations of this knife from different retailers.
Getting ready to compare it to a Ryusen Blazen 210 gyuto.
 
dafox said:
Where did you get your Akifusa?
I have a 210 gyuto from Epic Edge, great knife. Seems like there are lots of variations of this knife from different retailers.
Getting ready to compare it to a Ryusen Blazen 210 gyuto.
Click to expand...

Akifusa 210 was my first good knife. Got it from (the now unfortunately closed) japanesechef.com.au. its performance completely blew my mind at the time.

Shortly after, I bought a Blazen 240, which performed similarly bit maybe a bit thicker. I always wondered whether a 210 would be similar to my Akifusa. Will be interested to hear your thoughts.

The Blazen had much nicer balde, spine and choil finish and the balance was sublime, but the price was higher. The Blazen was given away (because i loved it and it was a very appropriate knife for the recipient). The Akifusa was the only 210 I had bought until recently. I dropped it a couple of years ago and it lost a few mm at the tip, so it became a project knife, getting fixed, thinned and refinished to semi- mirror, with an uchi finish which made the SS cladding look ghostly. Very cool. It's out on loan at the moment. Trying to get another mate hooked on good knives... 😇


The Akifusa does have very soft cladding- pretty easy to scratch it, even with a coarse tea towel.
 
Marek07 said:
I'm an R2 fanboy though quite like other PM steels as well. One caution: if you get the red handled Takamuras, put a micro bevel on them or risk lots of microchipping. They are true lasers - very thin and are around 22° (11° per side) IIRC. Any side torque on the board will cause chips without a micro bevel. That said, they sharpen easily and removing the micro chips is very easy.

Can't speak for their HSPS Pro range as I haven't used them but they look a bit thicker. Their Uchigumo/Suminigashi range has no such issues.
Click to expand...
I like Kippington's deburring method for R2 because it incorporates a microbevel which seems to protect the steel from microchipping a bit.
 
Nemo said:
I like Kippington's deburring method for R2 because it incorporates a microbevel which seems to protect the steel from microchipping a bit.
Click to expand...
Nemo, can you send us a link to Kippington's deburring method?
Thanks
 
josemartinlopez said:
And, stupid question, what can these not do such that someone would still use a non-stainless as this kind of daily driver?
Click to expand...
Re-reading your Qn, I realise that the second half has only been obliquely covered.

Stupid Qns are the ones you haven't asked yet, so this one no longer is stupid.

R2 (and SRS 13/15) are good knife steels. Long edge retention, not ridiculously difficult to sharpen or deburr. So "why use carbon steel?" is a good Qn. There are several different reasons you might consider a carbon steel knife:

1) Easier to sharpen and deburr.
2) More pleasant to sharpen, with better sharpening feel.
3) Maximum sharpness is greater.
4) Patinas are pretty and give character to the knife.
5) May be easier to thin.
6) It's older technology which works and carries a bit of je ne said quoi. (Maybe describe it as character? romanticism?).
7) It's cool to look after a precision instrument that you can't get away with abusing.

I live in a climate so dry that the landscape tends to incinerate itself every Summer, so it's not too hard to look after carbon steel. I think I'd have a few more stainless knives if I lived in Singapore.

There are some stainless steels which are a little more carbon- like in their sharpening performance. AEBL and to a lesser extent Gingami3/ Ginsanko come to mind.

I don't know how semistainless holds up in Singapore's humidity. If it copes well, it offers a lot of benefits. As long as you don't leave it lying around wet or dirty, it won't corrode in normal use (at least in my climate). Maybe patina a bit over time. If well heat treated, it I can be almost as nice to sharpen as carbon steel, gets almost as sharp and has pretty decent edge retention. Some specific examples of well HT'd semistainless that I am familiar with include:
1) Yoshikane SKD (apparently their SLD, which has higher Cr, almost stainless is also pretty good. Mashashi trained at Yoshi and his SLD is also pretty good).
2) Whatever the semistainless in Gesshin Gengetsu is.
3) Sukenari's YXR7. A lot like SKD but tougher.
4) The semistainless in the old Itinomonn (no longer produced).

Those knives all have the benefit of being very good cutters as well.

Edit: a note on nomenclature of SKD and SLD:
SKD-12 is very similar to AISI A2. Yoshikane calls these knives "SKD". 5-6% Cr.
SKD-11 is also known as SLD and is similar to AISI D2. Yoshikane calls these knives "SLD". 12-13%Cr (almost stainless).
 
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Nemo said:
Maximum sharpness is greater.
Click to expand...
Thanks for answering stupid questions! On maximum sharpness, I guess you're saying good heat treatment on a R2 can get them to the same sharpness but otherwise a carbon steel blade could get sharper and it's not just a function of hardness?
 
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