Recommend me a grind - fair question?

[ap1487]

You've heard it a hundred times but I'll say it too, j-knives has been the most glorious rabbit hole to fall into! Quarantine saviour.

Rewind a few months ago and I was deciding on my first knife to replace my Vnox 8" and I went with the 210 Yoshikane SKD k-tip gyuto. I then decided I wanted a petty, picking the 150 Kurosaki VG10 Fujin. Next I wanted to see what the fuss is about with these so called lasers, and so I also bought a Shibata Kotetsu R2 Bunka. I also picked up a Wusthof Ikon bread knife and a set of Naniwa Pro stones along the way. All these knives have been fantastic to use, and I'll continue using them all but I'm absolutely addicted and already am eyeing up my next purchase! I am sick and there is no cure.

I know I want a 240mm carbon-steel gyuto as my next knife. And let's be honest, there are practically no jobs that I can't already do with the 210 gyuto, the 180 bunka, the 150 petty, my beater Vnox or the bread knife (I'm a cafe chef, majority vegetable food prep, cook everything and anything at home) so we all know this is just a vanity purchase, I just want to try something different, feel a different cutting sensation, learn something new. So here's the question(s)...

What knife would you recommend that would provide a different cutting sensation to what I'm experiencing at the moment? Or better yet, should I be asking... is there a specific grind you think is worth trying? As far as I'm aware the Yoshikane SKD is a convex grind while the Shibata Kotetsu is a flat grind, so is there a grind you think I should be targeting?

Or perhaps I should be asking this - my knives so far are all light to middle weight so should I aim for a heavier knife? Will simply a heavier heftier knife be enough to provide me that new sensation?

I just want to try everything and I don't know what to go for next. So far I'm thinking about a Watanabe Pro / Toyama / Catcheside but I'm more than ready to be swayed!

 

[user 16756]

your inclination to go heavier e.g. Wat/Toyama is right on. Catcheside I cant speak to personally but they're well regarded by people I actually trust.

 

[dafox]

For something really different you might like to try a heavier wide bevel like a Heiji, forward balance, great steel.

 

[Eloh]

your inclination to go heavier e.g. Wat/Toyama is right on. Catcheside I cant speak to personally but they're well regarded by people I actually trust.

the ones i tried were very similar to watanabe/toyama.
IMO Wat/Toyama are some of the best cutters out there, fairly unique grinds and exceptional HT .

 

[Jason183]

Yeah, I would recommend the wide bevel grind, different experience, easy to thin, the cutting performance is between the lasers and workhorse grind.

 

[GBT-Splint]

First of I have to say you made great choices right after your vnox, I love the Shibata Kotetsu bunka myself.

You say that you are looking for a carbon steel knife, do you want a carbon core or both core and clad ?
(You mentioned Toyama, he only does stainless clad these days but you can find an old iron clad here on bst, the iron clad toyama are known to be heavier than his stainless clad line)

 

[ethompson]

Like others, I think the inkling to go w/ a heavyweight workhorse is a good call if you're looking to try something different.

I'll also throw out a Takeda as an option. You don't see them mentioned on here too often, though if you dive back several years ago they were all the rage - especially if they had extra belly. Nothing else is quite like it and I think they're a lot of fun to use. I used a Takeda nakiri almost exclusively for years of veg prep work for my restaurants - that thing is a blast, nothing like hammering out onions w/ absolutely no pieces sticking to the blade.

 

[ap1487]

Thanks for input guys. Any other heavyweights out there I should consider along with Toyamanabe, Catcheside, Heiji, Takeda?

Also is it true that generally a heavyweight knife will mean better food release because they've got a little bit more steel to play with so as to make quite an aggressive shaped grind?

Also, for those with experience with forward balance knives, how does that feel? I'm sitting here trying to imagine being pulled forwards towards my onion, it's hard to imagine! What use cases does a forward balance knife work better than say a middle or handle heavy knife?

To answer Q about cladding - originally I wasn't sure how well I would be able to maintain a carbon knife, so bought the semi-stainless SKD to try to get used to the 'wipe after use' that's required. I've gone to the extreme end where I'm now even wiping my stainless knives! So iron cladding / steel cladding both fine!

 

[GBT-Splint]

You probably can't be wrong if you buy a Wat or Toyama.
But I suggest you try a Munetoshi Gyuto if you don't mind the rustic f&f, this maker has been a revelation to me. It feels unique, it is heavy, the grind is something special and the sharpness has nothing to envy to knives twice or three times the price.
Just buy it I believe this IS what you are looking for.

As for wide bevel knives it is a good thing to have and for sure different. The one I own is not a so called "Workhorse" tho.

 

[tostadas]

Thanks for input guys. Any other heavyweights out there I should consider along with Toyamanabe, Catcheside, Heiji, Takeda?

Also is it true that generally a heavyweight knife will mean better food release because they've got a little bit more steel to play with so as to make quite an aggressive shaped grind?

Also, for those with experience with forward balance knives, how does that feel? I'm sitting here trying to imagine being pulled forwards towards my onion, it's hard to imagine! What use cases does a forward balance knife work better than say a middle or handle heavy knife?

To answer Q about cladding - originally I wasn't sure how well I would be able to maintain a carbon knife, so bought the semi-stainless SKD to try to get used to the 'wipe after use' that's required. I've gone to the extreme end where I'm now even wiping my stainless knives! So iron cladding / steel cladding both fine!

Also look at Mazaki. Forward balance for me tends to reduce the amount of force I need to apply to cut through things, since the weight of the knife provides some of the force. Another nice thing about thicker bladed knives is often the grip area is thicker, which makes the choil area very comfortable. For reference, the 240mm Mazaki I had was about 250g and 6mm thick out of the handle.

 

[GBT-Splint]

Thanks for input guys. Any other heavyweights out there I should consider along with Toyamanabe, Catcheside, Heiji, Takeda?

Also is it true that generally a heavyweight knife will mean better food release because they've got a little bit more steel to play with so as to make quite an aggressive shaped grind?

Also, for those with experience with forward balance knives, how does that feel? I'm sitting here trying to imagine being pulled forwards towards my onion, it's hard to imagine! What use cases does a forward balance knife work better than say a middle or handle heavy knife?

To answer Q about cladding - originally I wasn't sure how well I would be able to maintain a carbon knife, so bought the semi-stainless SKD to try to get used to the 'wipe after use' that's required. I've gone to the extreme end where I'm now even wiping my stainless knives! So iron cladding / steel cladding both fine!

See my previous post.

Heavier knife doesn't necessarily mean better food release but it's true that it is often the case because of the fact that they are almost always compared to lasers.

Forward balanced knives don't work better than any other knife IMHO but they are pleasant to use as they are kind of "attracted" to the board and thus it does more of the work for you.

 

[McMan]

I just want to try something different, feel a different cutting sensation, learn something new. So here's the question(s)...

What knife would you recommend that would provide a different cutting sensation to what I'm experiencing at the moment? Or better yet, should I be asking... is there a specific grind you think is worth trying?

Let me flip the question a little bit... Is there an attribute or a combination of attributes you're after? Things you are expecting the knife to do more of better?
I'm asking because it's kind of a tough question to answer when it comes to "cutting sensation"--because different people evaluate this differently. Also, it's not entirely a product of grind. There are other factors at work too--like height (and, of course, length and weight matter too). So, two knives with basically the same grind but different heights will feel and perform differently.

This said, Watanabe/Toyama is definitely worth owning. And Catcheside is wonderful. (More is at work than just his grind--his geometry = performance.)

Also is it true that generally a heavyweight knife will mean better food release because they've got a little bit more steel to play with so as to make quite an aggressive shaped grind?

Yup. In general. But can also depend on what you cut. Some stuff just sticks to knives and a beefy convex isn't magical

Also, for those with experience with forward balance knives, how does that feel? I'm sitting here trying to imagine being pulled forwards towards my onion, it's hard to imagine! What use cases does a forward balance knife work better than say a middle or handle heavy knife?

Like the knife is doing a little of the work on its own

 

[ap1487]

Thanks for the Mazaki & Munetoshi suggestions, added to the list! Also thanks guys for explaining the forward balanced knives, I can def see the appeal!

Sorry @McMan , I can't answer your flipped question because I don't know the answer myself! If you asked me a year ago I would have said "knife all same cut cut sharp no slip good". All I know is of the knives I've tried so far, everything has been a blast, and there's nothing I've struggled with produce wise, but I know there's so much variety out there that I don't know what distinctive feature I'd like to try next, e.g. the forward weight, heavyweight, wide bevel, s-grind etc!

 

[tostadas]

Thanks for the Mazaki & Munetoshi suggestions, added to the list! Also thanks guys for explaining the forward balanced knives, I can def see the appeal!

Sorry @McMan , I can't answer your flipped question because I don't know the answer myself! If you asked me a year ago I would have said "knife all same cut cut sharp no slip good". All I know is of the knives I've tried so far, everything has been a blast, and there's nothing I've struggled with produce wise, but I know there's so much variety out there that I don't know what distinctive feature I'd like to try next, e.g. the forward weight, heavyweight, wide bevel, s-grind etc!

And one more thing to add about Mazaki. You will find that there has been a lot of variation in the grind and profile of the blades over the years. I've seen his 240s range from around 220g-260g, so the grinds will be different as a result. But i would definitely recommend trying a heavyweight gyuto to see if that's something you like.

 

[Jason183]

Also is it true that generally a heavyweight knife will mean better food release because they've got a little bit more steel to play with so as to make quite an aggressive shaped grind?

it depends on what your work environment and what you cutting everyday, heavyweight knives have better food release on certain products, lasers grinds is better on others vise versa, you just have to experience yourself, it’s good to try them all then keep the ones that suits you the most.

 

[GBT-Splint]

Thanks for the Mazaki & Munetoshi suggestions, added to the list! Also thanks guys for explaining the forward balanced knives, I can def see the appeal!

Sorry @McMan , I can't answer your flipped question because I don't know the answer myself! If you asked me a year ago I would have said "knife all same cut cut sharp no slip good". All I know is of the knives I've tried so far, everything has been a blast, and there's nothing I've struggled with produce wise, but I know there's so much variety out there that I don't know what distinctive feature I'd like to try next, e.g. the forward weight, heavyweight, wide bevel, s-grind etc!

Check out the Kamon S-Hook grind

 

[JayS20]

Check out the Kamon S-Hook grind

After having had that for testing for 6 weeks, that one is hard to beat.
Munetoshi is nice since it has some wider bevels, some weight and food release is not bad and a good price but also rustic.
My Mazaki has quite some heft and a great distal taper, food release is also good. They definitely feel different. and differ between batches.
Toyama is also a really nice Workhorse with better food release, my ShiHan is even better.
Takeda I can't really recommend of the newer knives I have seen by him. Really good food release but really big and low shoulders which lead to wedging and needs thinning ootb.
Kamon Production knife Nr2 was really good if you want really good food release. Not your typical workhorse since it's not super heavy or has a thick grind. It has some weight but isn't heavy, nice distal taper, handle lies better in hands than I expected, was sceptical tbh. Has a double hollow grind, ease of cutting and still solid enough. Tried it again to compare with the S-Hook and yupp still nice, especially for the money. Just gets too few action with me, guess I need to sell it sooner or later since there are Customs coming in. Might be a knife I regret selling if I ever do so.

 

[JaVa]

That's a very smart start with your current set. The Wat and Toyama are great additions to any collection and will certainly provide that different sensation you're looking for.

Note that those guys are some serious oversized big boys. Not just the workhorse style, but also they're long and tall and quite a jump up from the 210 Yoshikane kiritsuke. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. And you probably already knew that, but thought it would be good to mention.

 

[ap1487]

After some reflection guys, I think I should reign in my spending a bit, the Watanabe/Toyama/Catcheside, if I got one, would be my most expensive knife by far and I'm not sure I'm ready for that yet! I think I'll save that for later so I have something to work to.

So just looking at the sub-€300 range, would you say the Mazaki and Munetoshi are my best bets for heavyweight wide bevel knives? I would add Takeda to this list but I can't see any EU vendors selling it (please no Brexit jokes, it's too soon, I'm still raw). Any other suggestions I'm missing?

 

[slickmamba]

I would really avoid takeda, their heat treat and grinds have been terrible recently.

The mazaki/munetoshi would be a good mixup.

 

[GBT-Splint]

After some reflection guys, I think I should reign in my spending a bit, the Watanabe/Toyama/Catcheside, if I got one, would be my most expensive knife by far and I'm not sure I'm ready for that yet! I think I'll save that for later so I have something to work to.

So just looking at the sub-€300 range, would you say the Mazaki and Munetoshi are my best bets for heavyweight wide bevel knives? I would add Takeda to this list but I can't see any EU vendors selling it (please no Brexit jokes, it's too soon, I'm still raw). Any other suggestions I'm missing?

Team Munetoshi here I already said what I think above ! The best value and sharpness for money imo

Can't say anything about Takeda, never used one but I heard people saying bad things about it recently.
But if you fancy one, there you go mate
Takeda

 

[Nemo]

Check out the hammered Wakui. A pretty beefy convex ground wide bevel. Food release not quite as good as an ironclad Wat, but not far behind.

Maybe have a squiz at Gesshin Gengetsu. It's a middleweight with very good food release for its thickness. Not as good as the thicker workhorses, but metter than most comparable middleweights.

 

[DavidPF]

Like the knife is doing a little of the work on its own

You can especially notice this if your knife weighs in the 40-50 pound range. You just let go, and it does its thing.

(There are some very large old vintage French knives made this way )

 

[tostadas]

After some reflection guys, I think I should reign in my spending a bit, the Watanabe/Toyama/Catcheside, if I got one, would be my most expensive knife by far and I'm not sure I'm ready for that yet! I think I'll save that for later so I have something to work to.

So just looking at the sub-€300 range, would you say the Mazaki and Munetoshi are my best bets for heavyweight wide bevel knives? I would add Takeda to this list but I can't see any EU vendors selling it (please no Brexit jokes, it's too soon, I'm still raw). Any other suggestions I'm missing?

Also eventually a chinese cleaver. CCK or if you want a cheaper intro, Shibazi. Very different from the other knives.

 

[GorillaGrunt]

Casting another vote for Munetoshi or Mazaki KU. Munetoshi was my second real j-knife after Gengetsu And it was a good pick for contrast. It’s at the top of your budget contingent on the exchange rate but you could consider a Togashi KU.