Reporting Problems with Knives - Good or Bad?

[Lizzardborn]

Providing objective information and increasing market transparency is essential. A product with issues does not mean often a lost sale - every product has its own and you have to choose the one with the issues that are least important to you.

From what I have read also Dave usually gives facts not opinions - they are easily verifiable.

I purchased my first gyuto after reading extensively on these forums. I knew the issues my purchase had and I went with it.

1. Do you like to be alerted to problems like Takeda is currently experiencing with making knives different (thicker/wedgier) than they have in the past or say a problem like Moritaka has always had (holes in the edge that pop up when sharpening)?

Yes. It is something that a customer needs to make informed purchase. Of course if the vendor/maker fixes and improves/solves the problem that should also be noted. It is bad to be haunted with urban legends long after the issue is gone (that is somewhat a problem with the way google gives more weight to older resources).

2. Would it better if I kept my mouth shut about such issues?

It would probably be better for one or two vendors in the short term. I would be negative for the health of the community. A lot of people here are first timers or with not so good knife culture. And a lot of the more experienced guys and girls try to educate their relatives. They need good solid info.

3. Perhaps the truth shouldn't be spoken by someone who could be listed as a competitor? Maybe it's best left to the consumers to find out (or not) what they've purchased and do the reporting instead?

A truth is a truth. Disclaiming that you compete should be enough. A consumer buying a lemon gives a bad taste and sours future relationships.

4. Do you only want positive reports/reviews?

I want reviews that give accurate picture of the products.

5. Is there room for negative reviews in this community?

Yes

6. If you were in my shoes, seeing so many knives, what would you do? Would you speak up and help someone to save their hard earned cash or sit back and keep quiet, not rocking the boat, keeping your public image in tact?

Japanese style knives have the hard earned image of excellent high performance tools due to traditions, culture and a lot of efforts put by the marketers and vendors. Relevant disclosures keep that image intact which helps maintain their price premium.

I am not sure that it is possible though for knives but every good PC hardware review site have living documents about their review process and testing methodology which is open for scrutiny. The closest I have seen with knives reviews is on zknives.

 

[Dave Martell]

I'm blown away (in a good sense) by the comments here. You folks are the best, thank you.

 

[Yamabushi]

I would most definitely prefer the your unfettered, uncensored, expert opinion, Dave! That's one of the primary reason's I am here. It's the no nonsense high quality members and their valued opinions and experience that make this the #1 kitchen knife site, IMHO! Please, keep doing what you are doing!

 

[RCG]

The overwhelming response to Dave's question has convinced me that to lose his honest reviews would be a great loss to the site.

Please add my voice to the chorus asking Dave to carry on doing what he has been doing here.

 

[Sabaki]

I think you are doing a great thing notifying us all, good or bad

sometimes u throw out words like barbwire and and this forum would be very quiet without you:thumbsup:

 

[sachem allison]

personally, Dave, I think you suck lemons.

 

[bkim]

Stay unbiased and they are good.

 

[Yamabushi]

Stay unbiased and they are good.

Not having a go at you, but IMHO, nothing is truly completely objective. Everything is relative. Despite our noble best efforts, everything to some degree is subjective/biased. Dave's experience and subjective opinion is exactly what many of us here appreciate, as clearly demonstrated by the outpouring of support above!

 

[Keith Sinclair]

I had been wanting a Takeda for a long time. When Dave first brought this up it made me look for a good condition older model which cuts fine.

Being a sucker for hand forged Japanese carbon steel, I like looking at slag finish wt. a 10X led light gives character to the blade.

My Tamahagane has much texture in the steel, not a perfectly smooth blade at all. When I Acetone off the protective layer they put on so will not rust ,the texture really emerged. Most people would not like these types of knives wt. the imperfections, thats why different strokes for different folks. And it gets razor sharp like a SB Yanagiba.

 

[labor of love]

correct me if im wrong, but i notice that you only criticize businesses not associated with kkf. i would have a better time believing your criticisms if you occasionally mentioned some of the faults of the knife makers/vendors here at kkf. but for some reason you never seem to.

 

[Dave Martell]

correct me if im wrong, but i notice that you only criticize businesses not associated with kkf. i would have a better time believing your criticisms if you occasionally mentioned some of the faults of the knife makers/vendors here at kkf. but for some reason you never seem to.

A most excellent observation!

Unfortunately I've only had low number (limited) access to a lot of what is made by the knifemakers here. I'd say that the most knives I've seen from any maker would have to be Devin's and I'm on record for what I think of those, I've spoke a lot about them in the past. I just haven't seen a lot from the other guys so what can I say in that case?

As for Japanese knives being sold by vendors here, I haven't run into any issues that would prompt me to mention a problem but that's not unlike the other 90+ (or whatever the number actually is) brands that CKTG sells that I've never said a bad word about.

All that being said, it's true that I likely won't be seen putting out negative reviews on fellow KKF vendors. I've been down that road at KF and I've learned that's not wise to do as it promotes in fighting which leads to bad blood. That's just a reality of getting along with your colleagues. Will this be seen a loss of credibility? Sure, by some.

 

[cookinstuff]

I have only noticed Dave point out 'issues' with stock blades, I don't think you scrutinize customs the way you scrutinize, say a moritaka or takeda, one of which is sold by a vendor on this forum. So, for Dave to comment on somebodies custom knife from a maker here would kind of be odd, if I don't mind saying. He will however point out an issue with a popular knife that alot of people may be purchasing and sending in for sharpening.

If most don't remember Dave had a couple Moritakas in for sharpening, he basically put a hole into the edge and had to buy the customer a whole new knife, now he is basically covering his ass, and letting it be known, he will not sharpen a moritaka, because he doesn't want to have to buy a customer a new knife, clearly the signs of a good guy. Dave is a very open person, he will tell you he won't make a handle out of a wood he doesn't feel comfortable working with, or sharpening a knife that he knows may have issues that will only reveal themselves once it's too late.

I joined this forum because of the community that Dave helped create, which was one where people could talk knives, good and bad, lets not turn this into a big 5/5 review website like another I know.... I mean you can see a review on this site of a Bill Burke gyuto that doesn't exactly do as well as basically every single gyuto on that site we know, I mean how do you chose between all of those 5 star gyutos?...... how is that a bad thing? Let's just keep the reviews civil and not turn it into a slander fest, but I'm sure most restaurant workers are pretty okay with writing a decent review, as unjust reviews affect most of us HUGELY. I doubt any cooks would right a review ripping someone a new one unless they absolutely deserved it.

That's my rant, thanks for keeping it real Dave.

 

[panda]

if you deem it ok not to share negative opinion on knives from kkf vendors, why did you feel the need to share your view on moritakas and takedas?

negative opinions are inevitable and are much better than having sugar coated fake 'reviews', i'm surprised it doesn't happen more often. i'm chalking that up to sheep mentality or fear of being scrutinized by peers.

 

[echerub]

For folks who are vendors here, if they've noticed not-so-great elements in other vendors' work, they might choose to share those observations directly via PM out of respect in a shared communal space.

Don't folks voice their assessments of other teams' players differently from the way they voice assessments to their own teammates?

 

[Birnando]

For folks who are vendors here, if they've noticed not-so-great elements in other vendors' work, they might choose to share those observations directly via PM out of respect in a shared communal space.

Don't folks voice their assessments of other teams' players differently from the way they voice assessments to their own teammates?

Well, let's just hope a visitor or new member are able to see thru the double standards in that.
Imo, you review anything based on a set standard or you don't do it at all.

If not, all this place is, is a market place for the reciding vendors and their fanboys, not a community of like minded people sharing in a mutual interest.

 

[echerub]

Dave's not a regular member though. He's a vendor. While he may, as a result of that, choose to be selective about what he says about other vendors' work, no regular member needs to choose to do so. Regular members can say whatever they want about whomever's work they want because for regular members nobody else around here is *working* in the same space. We're here only for the enjoyment of it.

I'm not saying Dave only limits any negative comments about other KKF vendors' work to PM only - maybe he has no comments about their work either way. I don't know what he has or has not said to others. I was simply suggesting he might be doing that. If it has any bearing, remember that one of the current makers whose work has our negative attention is Takeda, but one of our vendors *here* carries Takeda knives.

Consider also that the vendors here don't loudly tout their own works as the greatest things since sliced bread, either. Consider also that Dave doesn't loudly proclaim the positives of knives either - not even his own. So it's not like he's saying hey mine's the best and the others are trash.

Note also that Dave isn't actually giving reviews - pluses and minuses - and we know that. He has just pointed out where he's seen problems. The very nature of his role as a professional sharpener means that he sees more of the problem side of things than the pluses - he fixes knives, he doesn't use them. So I would posit, based on my understanding, that he is like a medical professional who sees the problems the human body can have much more than he is like a sports coach who sees the great performance the human body is capable of.

Anyways, I'm not going to change anyone's minds here. Take anyone's input here as input and evaluate it yourself - and yes, new members and visitors must do that. This is why it's confusing when we start learning about cooking knives.

 

[The Anti-Chrysler]

The two brands with problems specifically mentioned here, Moritaka and Takeda, aren't inexpensive knives. I'm kind of reiterating here, but I would sure love to know ahead of time if I'm going to have spend another $100-$150 to have someone 'fix' one of them before they can even be used. That sentiment would apply to any maker's knives, whether they are vendors here on not. IMO, any time someone offers a product or a service, they should be receptive to some constructive criticism in order to improve their product.

 

[Birnando]

The two brands with problems specifically mentioned here, Moritaka and Takeda, aren't inexpensive knives. I'm kind of reiterating here, but I would sure love to know ahead of time if I'm going to have spend another $100-$150 to have someone 'fix' one of them before they can even be used. That sentiment would apply to any maker's knives, whether they are vendors here on not. IMO, any time someone offers a product or a service, they should be receptive to some constructive criticism in order to improve their product.

Not even usable, eh?
No disrespect man, but that sounds pretty much like rubbish to me.
I'm in no way arguing the findings of Mr. Martell or others regarding these two brands, I'm sure they have valid issues regarding specimens of those brands.
But unusable?
Like they will stop in the middle of an onion regardless of force you apply to the blade?
Come on!

What I am having issues with is the severity, or balance if you will, of said issues, compared to products from say JKI or JNS.
Or perhaps some of the many knifemakers on here.
The problem is, we aren't provided with reviews with the same scrutiny from Mr. Martell or other vendors regarding those, now are we?
And that is what I am questioning in this thread.

It makes for unbalanced and biased reporting worth little to nothing to an objective outsider.

Now, Mr. Martell and other vendors on this board are from what I understand very good at what they do.
Furthermore, they might very well be of the finest character, reporting as factual and precise as all that.
But the back story is still there, admitted to by Mr. Martell himself.
Both in regards to the conflict with that certain vendor/person and with the loyalty towards fellow vendor-members of KKF.
Arguing that those facts are ignored fully when making a post here, to me, sounds rather gullable.
After all, they rely on income from you, the members on here, to feed their families.
That does not constitute objectivity.
Far from it, IME.

As to being receptive of factual criticism, we are in agreement.
Factual being the key-word.

 

[panda]

in my opinion if you arent capable of doing a simple 'fix' you really shouldnt be using expensive knives to begin with.. a good knife doesnt make you better at using them, if anything it works against your development.

 

[Dave Martell]

if you deem it ok not to share negative opinion on knives from kkf vendors, why did you feel the need to share your view on moritakas and takedas?

I never said it was OK to not share negative opinions on knives from KKF vendors. What I did say is that I wouldn't share them IF I actually had something to share about them which I don't.

Moritaka & (more recently) Takeda's problems are worth mentioning as they're clear issues that have been repeated, continue to be seen, and show no change on the horizon since they've been discounted by makers and retailers alike. I couldn't class these situations with anything else I know of, certainly not any KKF vendor's wares.

The difference is clear problems with two makers vs no problems with others.

 

[Dave Martell]

Also, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not reviewing knives per se - it's more of reporting issues that are seen over and over again. Issues....and this is key.....that aren't something that an end user can fix.

For example, Moritaka edge holes have only (to my knowledge) been remedied by (Ken) grinding away part of the edge often in ways that change the knife from it's proper form to mutant status. For Takeda (again to my knowledge), either the maker himself (or Ken) grinds the bevels way up into the blade face where they belong. So in these two instances it's either the maker or a retailer's partner/agent who fix the knives properly or otherwise. It is not reasonable to expect an end user to mutilate their new Moritaka so that it won't work as designed or to properly grind their new Takeda so that it won't wedge in an onion.

 

[The Anti-Chrysler]

in my opinion if you arent capable of doing a simple 'fix' you really shouldnt be using expensive knives to begin with.. a good knife doesnt make you better at using them, if anything it works against your development.

The point I'm trying to make (politely) is that if I were spending $370 for a gyuto (Takeda 270mm gyuto for example), I darn well shouldn't have to fix a thing. For nearly $400, I expect a turn-key ready to go knife.

 

[jared08]

I think part of the conflict here Is the idea that ANY of the 90+ brands from cktg are discredited or not even given a chance, bc of who sells them. There is always a recommendation to get something from a vendor on here, which admittedly, most of them haven't even been handled before. You can't tell me you have tried every knife and none are better than something from Jon or maxim, probably at a better price.
There was conflict on a different forum in the past for you providing negative feedback about another vendors product, so you are gunshy about it now. That is a lack a credibility when it comes to holding a standard across the board.

Cktg only allows a positive post in their forum or review on a knife. It seems that is happening here with the vendors products. Just bc I good guy sells it doesn't mean it can't be a bad Apple.

I'm done ranting.
Prolly had a bit much to drink so take it with a salt lick.

 

[XooMG]

The point I'm trying to make (politely) is that if I were spending $370 for a gyuto (Takeda 270mm gyuto for example), I darn well shouldn't have to fix a thing. For nearly $400, I expect a turn-key ready to go knife.

I agree. If I want a fixer-upper that I have to repair the geometry on, there are some very cheap options with excellent heat treat. When hundreds of dollars are involved, the maker should have done that for me, and their production inefficiency is a poor excuse.

 

[apicius9]

Lots of apples and oranges here, IMHO. As far as I understood it, Dave was asking about pointing out systematic issues (I am not even using the word 'flaws' here) in specific knives or lines of knives, or changes in character that deviated from previous experiences which he noticed and which raised concern for him. I do not see how this is the same as criticizing a maker - on or off the fora - or a vendor in general. There is a fine, but easily visible line between criticizing a person/business or a specific product. I think these lines have occasionally been blurred in the past which makes many of us moan in agony and crave for stiff drinks when we think back...

This is also very different from what I - and obviously many others also - would call a review. A review IMHO includes the experience of using the knife over enough time to form a solid opinion about it; this may include the sharpening experience, but normally goes way beyond this. When Dave does a review like that (not that I actually remember whether he ever did one...), he would be just another clumsy user like most of us (ok, I wll speak about myself We are a very diverse bunch with varying experience, and while I generally trust whatever is written up here as the persons honest opinion, I would encourage everyone to not totally neglect their own common sense. But many here are specialists -or nerds - with very specific interests or experiences. So, I would value an enthusiastic home user's comments on edge holding highly because that reflects also my situation and gives me good guidance, just as I would value Dave's and other's comments on sharpening a certain knive highly because I have no clue and appreciate the guidance.

So, my short conclusion: Dave should be able to say "I recently had an unusually high number of knife x coming in with the same issues which I consider a flaw and which I want you to be aware of when you decide on spending your hard-earned money"; we all should be able to say: "I have now used knife xxx for some time and here are my subjective impressions drom this - do with that whatever you like"; and we all, hopefully, refrain from saying "Vendor/maker xxx sold me this crappy knifes, he is a jerk." This last one also implies that, if anyone has serious issues with any kind of product they buy, the dirst address should always be a converstation with the maker/vendor and not blowing steam here.

Ok, a lot of preaching, but it IS Easter Sunday...

Stefan

 

[XooMG]

I think part of the conflict here Is the idea that ANY of the 90+ brands from cktg are discredited or not even given a chance, bc of who sells them. There is always a recommendation to get something from a vendor on here, which admittedly, most of them haven't even been handled before. You can't tell me you have tried every knife and none are better than something from Jon or maxim, probably at a better price.
There was conflict on a different forum in the past for you providing negative feedback about another vendors product, so you are gunshy about it now. That is a lack a credibility when it comes to holding a standard across the board.

Cktg only allows a positive post in their forum or review on a knife. It seems that is happening here with the vendors products. Just bc I good guy sells it doesn't mean it can't be a bad Apple.

I think it's a shame. I cannot get products from JKI or Tosho for a reasonable price because of the insane shipping costs. I can get some things from JNS but communication is horribly inconsistent and descriptions are sometimes wrong enough to make me hesitate or regret. One of my best knives was sold by a Japanese vendor but is carried by CKTG and I would have considered ordering it from them if the Japanese option didn't work out. It doesn't even really get mentioned here, though it was a pretty big hit on the CKTG forum. Surely there are problems, but sometimes the enemies of this forum get stuff right.

 

[Ruso]

As long as the opinion is honest and not bias in any way (very hard sometimes) it should reflect positive and negative. Otherwise it will be impossible to make an educated choice, and many people just don't have the funds to try the near countless number of knives, unfortunately.

So yes, keep it coming Dave, bad or good!

 

[user 1925]

The issue is that often what one perceives as being a "flaw" another sees as suitable for their philosophy of use. I think there are ways to point out aspects of the knife that might not be suitable for some uses without claiming them to be an "issue." There are glaring exceptions of course, but just because a knife is thicker behind the edge does not mean it is flawed. It may not be what most members here want in an everyday knife, but they have their applications.

Every knife review is biased, but the difference between a good review and the majority of reviews on the internet are that the good reviews are balanced, thorough, inclusive of a wide audience and often possess thoughtfulness when considering the knives drawbacks with respect to the author's application.

Lastly, I think certain people should be off limits. I've seen personal attacks on one person's name, their products and their store. I have no interest in the person or their store, but there is no bigger turn off than watching grown men act like 13 year old teenage girls.

 

[Namaxy]

I don't think anyone is against honest discourse. Unfortunately, only a select few here occupy the bully pulpit. The result can be groupthink. Takeda is a perfect example. If I could paraphrase your thread, I think you intended to point out that something changed with the production process/grind/QA/QC, and to be aware. You didn't say 'All Takedas suck'. Yet, while a very small subset here understand that, the vast majority now associate all Takeda knives with your comments. I experienced this first hand trying to sell one a couple months ago. Though mine had no issue, I must have received 20 PM's to the effect of 'Dave said Takedas have issues that will cost $150 to fix, will you take $100 for it?' Whether intended or not, you changed the market value of a brand.

 

[GeneH]

1. YES "Do you like to be alerted to problems ..."

2. NO "Would it better if I kept my mouth shut about such issues? "

3.a. NOT RELIVENT Perhaps the truth shouldn't be spoken by someone who could be listed as a competitor?

3.b. NO. We need experienced professionals judgements too. "Maybe it's best left to the consumers to find out (or not) what they've purchased and do the reporting instead?"

4. HEAVENS NO. "Do you only want positive reports/reviews? "

5. YES "Is there room for negative reviews in this community? "

6. NOT BE AS ... UNBIASED "If you were in my shoes, seeing so many knives, what would you do?"