Research for future purchase - Wide bevel

[Dhoff]

Hi everyone,

This will not be an immediate buy, rather I cannot help but plan what I want when economy allows. I am looking for a gyuto at 180-210mm. Budget is below 1000 US. I use pinchgrip, push cut, slicing and light chopping.

So, I have fallen in love with the aesthetics of wide bevel knives. Specifically I have been searching high and low in the forum for two reasons:

• How hard is it to sharpen a wide bevel
• What options are there that combines my preferred aesthetic with function

And before I get jumped by the mob , I know function is subjective to some extent. I do not mind poor food release, and a bit of wedging. I do love the feeling of a blade just passing through the food with little or no resistance.

So far I've come up with 3 options, that are vastly different in that one is stainless, one of semi-stainless and one is carbon.

Kagekiyo
Heiji
Sakai Takayuki

I would prefer a stainless clad with Shirogami #2, Aogami #2 or Aogami Super, but cannot locate any that has been positively spoken of on the forum. I do not trust myself with the #1 brittleness and I do not mind using more time to sharpen. I find it quite relaxing.

If you have an opinion on which of the 3 knives you would personally prefer or even a fourth knife, let me hear it please

Custom is definitely an option I would consider. I love the work of many here on the forum including Marko, Bill Burke and many more both relatively new and well established mastersmiths.

 

[Midsummer]

I very much like my wide bevel knives as well. I asked a question about a year ago regarding locating knives like these. I got crickets. At that time the wide bevels were very much out of style. https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/grind-question.36589/

Heiji, I have a 180 petty, 210 and 240 gyuto are great knives some of my favorites. These are wonderful working knives. I like his semi stainless better than some carbons I have used and his carbon is one of the best. He can do a custom, but his standard is not to have a really high grind line.

Kagekiyo- this is what I think of when you say wide bevel. I have a 210 gyuto B1 and it is closer to 200mm. It is a phenomenal cutter and a delicate instrument. I would like to get more of there line. Great knife.

Sakai Takayuki is a behemoth of a knife company and they produce a number of knives. They have 2 "lines" that I consider wide bevel. The Syousin Sakura line from Knives and stones is impressive. I have a 240 regular and a 240 Ktip. Both are in ginsanko and the tip is one of my favorites- they make a 210 available in blue steel http://www.knivesandstones.com/sakai-takayuki-syousin-sakura-wa-gyuto-210mm/ . I have also had my eye on the Takayuki Homura Blue #2 Kengata 225mm.

The highly reputed smith Shiraki does a number of wide bevels- Aframes has some as does Tsubaya.

Tsubaya also has work from Tanaka (not Shigeki). Tanaka is an outstanding smith and is said to be the smith behind the wide beveled fujiyama Konosuke's. Some one will likely point out that for the best wide bevels you need a very talented sharpener. That is certainly the case with the original fujiyamas as is with the current Tsubaya/Tanaka offerings. I have a 270 from this line. It is a beast of a knife with a beautiful wide bevel and a thick spine. These were made with a KU finish.

Hinoura (Father and Son) are some other smiths you may want to look into. Best of luck, and enjoy.

 

[Dhoff]

You, Sir, made a very comprehensible and in depth reply. Thank you for sharing

How does one go about having a custom Heiji made?

 

[Cyrilix]

Is wide bevel simply a knife that has been sharpened at a fixed angle a significant way up the blade face? In other words, flat all the way up half of the knife, then convexed for the remaining?

 

[tgfencer]

Wide bevels are no harder to sharpen then other knives, and depending on the grind, can be easier. They are certainly easier to thin.

To add to what Midsummer said, I've used Heiji and Kagekiyo, but they are very different beasts. Heiji are heavier, have shorter bevels, and I don't think I'd ever say they fall through food. Kagekiyo (which come in white, blue, and ginsanko steel) are lighter, have much taller bevels, are thinner behind the edge, and have much more of the fall through food factor. Both Heiji and Kagekiyo tend to be on the lower end in terms of heel height at their respective lengths, until you get up to 270s, so if you like taller knives you may want to consider other options or ask a vendor to find you one to suit you.

If you're considering customs, I'd say Halcyon Forge and Robert Trimarchi at the 9 knives would be good options as they regularly do wide bevels, although I'm sure Marko or others can whip up something for you.

 

[Elliot]

That is a very handsome budget and should serve you well.

1. The first thing that comes to mind, for me, is Kagekiyo. In terms or F&F and overall aesthetic, I am not sure there is a better option. Craig at Carbon Knife Co. stocks the Aogami 1, which is absolutely delightful steel. I have an Aogami 1 and Shirogami 1. I cannot speak highly enough. The Blue is nowhere near as brittle as you might think. If I am being honest, this would be my first, second and third choice. I would do the 240 and know that it's a little undersized, as I see 180mm more like petty's, but you seem to know your range.

2. There are some incredible custom makers to consider here. Comet Knives is one I would have high on the list. Trey makes honyaki that have wonderfully wide bevels. I am fortunate enough to have snagged one. Amazing knife and a really nice guy.

3. Shiraki Hamono is another maker to consider. Be careful who uses the name Kenichi Shiraki, however, as you are more than likely dealing with someone who is mistaking Shiraki Hamono, his shop, with him, the legendary maker. Shiraki-San stopped producing knives, by most accounts, at least a year or two ago. His apprentice, Nakagawa-San, is the man who would make the knife you purchase. This is not meant to be a detractor, but merely what I hope to be useful information.

4. Konosuke Fujiyama. You would have to track down the older version, as the newer has a more convex shape without the wide bevel. This may take some time. I have yet to find one. I am very happy with the FM series, which you can find a bit more regularly, but I don't know that it will meet your aesthetic desire. Not wide bevel. However, as an aside, Yoshikazu Tanaka, as the previous person mentioned, is never a bad idea.

5. Just a quick note on Heiji. Nakaya is a very nice man and is very polite over email. However, it is a bit tough to get him to respond in a timely manner and my understanding is that the wait time is a touch long. It might behoove you to consider looking at the Gesshin Heiji line that Jon carries at JKI. The Heiji carbon is top-notch and something a lot of people say is superior to Shigefusa. I have both makers and see them as different enough. Heiji has a "contact us" on his site. It's what I used: http://www.nakayaheiji.co.jp/contact/contact-English.html. I prefer thinner knives, but Heiji is just one of those makers that I had to own.

 

[MrHiggins]

--- 4. Konosuke Fujiyama. You would have to track down the older version, as the newer has a more convex shape without the wide bevel. This may take some time. I have yet to find one. I am very happy with the FM series, which you can find a bit more regularly, but I don't know that it will meet your aesthetic desire. Not wide bevel. However, as an aside, Yoshikazu Tanaka, as the previous person mentioned, is never a bad idea. ---

There are wide bevel Fujiyama clones out there like Tananka Kyuzo fro hitohira (I have a 210 that's a stunning good knife). Also Tsubaya from the same shop (people raved about these, but I haven't tried one). Both are very beautiful wide bevel knives.

 

[HRC_64]

The Tsubaya Blue#1 KU is reported 51-52 heel height
cost is around $500 or so, or half of your stated budget.

Its not cheap but it is a a JDM market product,
and isn't really inflated with markups or hype.

My caution with widebeveles is that not everyone
like to cut with them. In addtion to wedgeing,
they can steer and have awkwardness moving thru
pruduct in other ways, depending on the product height
vs the bevel height.

You can have have a knife that cuts like it has a bit of split
personality.

Alternatively, ....there are various aesthetic options if you just like contrast
on the blade...myabe look at TF denka if you have $1,000 to throw around.

 

[HRC_64]

Lastly, I'm not sure you're gonna find too many wide bevels (traditional grind with shinogi)
with stainless cladding (non-traditional materials).

Kagekiyo Ginsan is one but has stainless core which is likely max 62 hrc.
Denka has stainless cladding but AS core at ~64-65.

 

[Wdestate]

yoshikane is one of my favorites even compared to wide bevels that are drastically more money, you can grab for 250$ and they are great performers, thin behind the edge with enough heft for chopping.

 

[tgfencer]

Could also add Hinoura to the list. He offers stainless clad aogomi super in wide bevel format

 

[Dhoff]

The Tsubaya Blue#1 KU is reported 51-52 heel height
cost is around $500 or so, or half of your stated budget.

Its not cheap but it is a a JDM market product,
and isn't really inflated with markups or hype.

My caution with widebeveles is that not everyone
like to cut with them. In addtion to wedgeing,
they can steer and have awkwardness moving thru
pruduct in other ways, depending on the product height
vs the bevel height.

You can have have a knife that cuts like it has a bit of split
personality.

Alternatively, ....there are various aesthetic options if you just like contrast
on the blade...myabe look at TF denka if you have $1,000 to throw around.

Not so much I have 1.000 to throw around. I have a handbuild guitar I have not been using for 10 years. I wish to exchange that uniqueness for a unique blade.

 

[HRC_64]

Not so much I have 1.000 to throw around. I have a handbuild guitar I have not been using for 10 years. I wish to exchange that uniqueness for a unique blade.

Lots of options, no worries...set a limit for what you feel OK with leaving out on the countertop everday
(alot of people may feel better with <$300 than $1K in actual use)

yoshikane is one of my favorites even compared to wide bevels that are drastically more money, you can grab for 250$ and they are great performers, thin behind the edge with enough heft for chopping.

This is a good point, also Yoshikane does lots of work with stanless cladding, and so does Hinoura for that matter...

 

[Xenif]

I love wide bevel knives as well.
I think everyone has pointed out the various pros and cons already. Wide bevels are really an overall generalization, the shoulders can be vastly different one another. On one hand you have Hinoura or Heiji where the shoulders are very pronounced and shorter blade road. On the other you have Shigefusa and Mazaki where the shoulders are very rounded/blends in to the Hira, and they have much wider kireha. All of that plays into how they cut, food release and how they look after polishing. And of course each of the four I just mentioned will have very different grinds and blade profiles, and steel too.

So if you want a truly "unique" blade that totally fits what you want, you practically have to try a wide variety to see what really speaks to you.

 

[Cyrilix]

Is wide bevel simply a knife that has been sharpened at a fixed angle a significant way up the blade face? In other words, flat all the way up half of the knife, then convexed for the remaining?

I hate to quote myself, but it seems like everyone here knows the definition of a wide bevel knife. Is the above stated definition true?

 

[Nemo]

I advise that you decide what kind of wide bevel you want. Many are ground convex and respond best to maintaining that convex when sharpening. I use a kind of 2 sided hamiguriba sharpening as outlined in Jon's excellent JKI videos. It seemed a little intimidating at first but was in fact super easy and a great intro single bevel sharpening. It also taught me a lot about knife grinds and thinning in general. Many are ground near flat (actually slightly convex in most cases but will be flat after a thinning session or two). A few are ground convex.

Also have a think about the aesthetics of the knife above the wide bevel. Do you want plain kasumi, ku, hammered, nashiji, damascus....

Do you want a thin knife or a thicker food release knife? Flat or curved profile?

I'm a bit confused because you mention stainless cladding but mention some iron clad knives. You also mention that you don't mind poor food release or wedging but you want the knife to move through food easily. Can you clarify? FWIW, many wide bevels have pretty good performance.

Good stainless clad options:
Tanaka blue2 Nashiji. Curved profile thinner knife. Flattish wide bevel. Nashiji finish. Super value.
Kurosaki Syousin Chiku. Curved profile thinner knife. Good taper. Convex wide bevel (to my eye). Migaki or Ku finish.
Yoshikane Tsuchime. Available in white2 (and some excellent semistainless options). Very flat profile, convex wide bevel. Mine is a thicker knife but there are reports of thinner versions (at Bernal IIRC).
Wakui Tsuchime. Stainless clad white2. Flat profile. Convex wide bevel. Mine is a thicker, food release knife.
Kurosaki Shizuku is worth a look. It is R2 (stainless). A very thin knife. IIRC (it's out on loan at the moment), it's a concave wide bevel with a bit of taper. It has an type of hammered patter called "Diamond Damascus" which I quite like.

Of the non stainless clad options that I have:
Mizuno Hontanren Wide Bevel: Iron clad blue2. Convex wide bevel. Kasumi finish. Moderately flat profile.
Hinoura Hyakuren: Iron clad white2. Flattish concave wide bevel. Middling profile. Middling grind. Kasumi finish. A great no nonsense workhorse.
Kagekiyo (mine ia not the JKI version): Iron clad white2 (also available in blue1 or g3 IIRC). Flattish concave wide bevel. Thinnish knife. Mine is K tip, so flattish profile. Kasumi finish.
Mazaki: Iron clad white2. Multiple versions are around. Mine is the first KNS batch. Flattish profile. Convex wide bevel with eased shinogi. Great performer. Great taper. Kasumi finish. Indifferently finished blade face (easy to fix) but great spine and choil rounding. Go figure.

There are heaps of options. Hope this helps.

 

[stringer]

↑
Cyrilix said:
"Is wide bevel simply a knife that has been sharpened at a fixed angle a significant way up the blade face? In other words, flat all the way up half of the knife, then convexed for the remaining?"
"I hate to quote myself, but it seems like everyone here knows the definition of a wide bevel knife. Is the above stated definition true?"

Essentially, when talking about double bevel gyutos, yes. Instead of being flat ground or convex ground up the full face of the blade. They are saber ground. Like two single bevel knives with their flat faces glued together. There's tons of variations as others have more eloquently described above, but generally a wide bevel knife will have a flat hira and a
strong shinogi line. The knife is stamped and/or forged and/or flat ground and then a second bevel is ground partially up the flat grind resulting in shouldered bevels. Here's a link to a good picture showing hira and shinogi.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/646829565204073217/

 

[Nemo]

I hate to quote myself, but it seems like everyone here knows the definition of a wide bevel knife. Is the above stated definition true?

Not really.

It's a knife where there is a distinct line (in single bevels, this is the shinogi line) between the blade road and the flat above the shinogi line (in single bevels, this is called the hira).

The blade road can be covex, concave or flat, and these all have pros and cons for the geometry, performance and maintennence.

Wide bevels have pros and cons.

They are generally easier to thin because the thinning angle is made clear. They will also teach you a bit about knife grinds by how they react to thinning. They have a certain aesthetic which many (meyself included) find appealing.

On the downside, it is difficult to make them taper much (it requres a constantly changing wide bevel angle) and if the shinogi line is prominent (not eased), they can wedge a bit higher up the blade.

I have read talk of certain knives not being a "true" or "functional" wide bevel. I must say, I never really understood what this means. It may be refering to a convex wide bevel- I'm not sure.

 

[stringer]

I think some knives have shinogis that are cosmetic only. They are sand blasted or milled or buffed or something to give the appearance but are otherwise a flat ground knife. From the other side of the coin people might be referring to knives that have a strong shinogi construction, but then have the shoulders rounded off.

 

[HRC_64]

cosmetic shinogi is stenciled on BS

 

[Cyrilix]

Not really.

It's a knife where there is a distinct line (in single bevels, this is the shinogi line) between the blade road and the flat above the shinogi line (in single bevels, this is called the hira).

The blade road can be covex, concave or flat, and these all have pros and cons for the geometry, performance and maintennence.

Wide bevels have pros and cons.

They are generally easier to thin because the thinning angle is made clear. They will also teach you a bit about knife grinds by how they react to thinning. They have a certain aesthetic which many (meyself included) find appealing.

On the downside, it is difficult to make them taper much (it requres a constantly changing wide bevel angle) and if the shinogi line is prominent (not eased), they can wedge a bit higher up the blade.

I have read talk of certain knives not being a "true" or "functional" wide bevel. I must say, I never really understood what this means. It may be refering to a convex wide bevel- I'm not sure.

So from my understanding the only way to get a significant shinogi line is to have enough of a shoulder that the difference in angle is clean enough to form that line.

Speaking of the blade road, the reason why I ask whether or not it's flat is because if it's flat, then thinning becomes easy because as long as you lay the blade flat on its face, you will thin it. But if it's not flat, then what is the difference between it and any other regularly convex knife? The wide bevel is not a single bevel. Neither is the rest of the knife. I don't get how you can call that wide bevel.

 

[Nemo]

So from my understanding the only way to get a significant shinogi line is to have enough of a shoulder that the difference in angle is clean enough to form that line.

Speaking of the blade road, the reason why I ask whether or not it's flat is because if it's flat, then thinning becomes easy because as long as you lay the blade flat on its face, you will thin it. But if it's not flat, then what is the difference between it and any other regularly convex knife? The wide bevel is not a single bevel. Neither is the rest of the knife. I don't get how you can call that wide bevel.

In order to get a crisp shinogi, you definitely need a shoulder to form the line. You can get a bit of a faux shinogi by poloshing the blade road differently to the flat.

Sure, thinning is easy on a flat but a convex wide bevel blade roadstill provides a visual and tactile guide for thinning.

The difference between that and a non wide bevel grind is that the thinning bevel is made much more obvious.

There are certainly some shades of grey here. My Mazaki for example has very obvious and easy to follow convex thinning bevels but no really clear shinogi (except as outlined by my polishing):

 

[MrHiggins]

The Mazaki certainly splits the difference between a wide bevel/sharp shinogi knife and a full convex knife. Maybe that's why they're so good?!?

There's a wide bevel knife that was just posted on the BST here that looks fantastic for the money.

 

[Cyrilix]

In order to get a crisp shinogi, you definitely need a shoulder to form the line. You can get a bit of a faux shinogi by poloshing the blade road differently to the flat.

Sure, thinning is easy on a flat but a convex wide bevel blade roadstill provides a visual and tactile guide for thinning.

The difference between that and a non wide bevel grind is that the thinning bevel is made much more obvious.

There are certainly some shades of grey here. My Mazaki for example has very obvious and easy to follow convex thinning bevels but no really clear shinogi (except as outlined by my polishing):




View attachment 48999

Thanks. I didn't know this was a grey area. I thought it was either wide bevel or not.

 

[never mind]

Takayuki Homura Blue #2 Kengata 225mm

Itsuo Doi, acccording to some sellers and perhaps also the stamp on the back.

 

[Dhoff]

I advise that you decide what kind of wide bevel you want. Many are ground convex and respond best to maintaining that convex when sharpening. I use a kind of 2 sided hamiguriba sharpening as outlined in Jon's excellent JKI videos. It seemed a little intimidating at first but was in fact super easy and a great intro single bevel sharpening. It also taught me a lot about knife grinds and thinning in general. Many are ground near flat (actually slightly convex in most cases but will be flat after a thinning session or two). A few are ground convex.

Also have a think about the aesthetics of the knife above the wide bevel. Do you want plain kasumi, ku, hammered, nashiji, damascus....

Do you want a thin knife or a thicker food release knife? Flat or curved profile?

I'm a bit confused because you mention stainless cladding but mention some iron clad knives. You also mention that you don't mind poor food release or wedging but you want the knife to move through food easily. Can you clarify? FWIW, many wide bevels have pretty good performance.

Good stainless clad options:
Tanaka blue2 Nashiji. Curved profile thinner knife. Flattish wide bevel. Nashiji finish. Super value.
Kurosaki Syousin Chiku. Curved profile thinner knife. Good taper. Convex wide bevel (to my eye). Migaki or Ku finish.
Yoshikane Tsuchime. Available in white2 (and some excellent semistainless options). Very flat profile, convex wide bevel. Mine is a thicker knife but there are reports of thinner versions (at Bernal IIRC).
Wakui Tsuchime. Stainless clad white2. Flat profile. Convex wide bevel. Mine is a thicker, food release knife.
Kurosaki Shizuku is worth a look. It is R2 (stainless). A very thin knife. IIRC (it's out on loan at the moment), it's a convex wide bevel with a bit of taper. It has an type of hammered patter called "Diamond Damascus" which I quite like.

Of the non stainless clad options that I have:
Mizuno Hontanren Wide Bevel: Iron clad blue2. Convex wide bevel. Kasumi finish. Moderately flat profile.
Hinoura Hyakuren: Iron clad white2. Flattish concave wide bevel. Middling profile. Middling grind. Kasumi finish. A great no nonsense workhorse.
Kagekiyo (mine ia not the JKI version): Iron clad white2 (also available in blue1 or g3 IIRC). Flattish concave wide bevel. Thinnish knife. Mine is K tip, so flattish profile. Kasumi finish.
Mazaki: Iron clad white2. Multiple versions are around. Mine is the first KNS batch. Flattish profile. Convex wide bevel with eased shinogi. Great performer. Great taper. Kasumi finish. Indifferently finished blade face (easy to fix) but great spine and choil rounding. Go figure.

There are heaps of options. Hope this helps.

Wow , very helpful and yet showed med how complex this is.

I thought lasers were known to pass through food with ease yet the tradeoff was a bit og wedging in e.g. big roots and poor food release. This my description.

I really like the look of the 3 knives/makers i mentioned. Clear shonogi and No other finish.

I did not want to limit the type of Steel as I value performance highly and wish for one of the best.

After reading All the great responses it sounds like it will be a bit daunting to thin a wide bevel that is not completely straight. Or alternatively thin it to straight bevel which would affect the performance.

I must think on this.

Other than wide bevel I think honyaki are the most aestetically pleasing. But i think event a 240 is a bit top Long for meget sympatisk, i lack control. And i really cant find a use for e.g. a yanagi event though i love the look.

 

[HRC_64]

Its worth pointing out here that this debate is quite similar to
"convex vs scandi grind", which is a curved edge vs a V edge.

The reason its useful to understand in this context is that the original
version of the scandi grind was not flat-ground V but was flat grind above the V,
with a convex below (a-la-clamshell single bevel grinds).

In other words, a flat-grind has never been the platonic ideal of this grind...
however it has been a default result for people who are "being economical"
including some pro chefs who sharpen single bevels this way.

 

[Dhoff]

Its worth pointin out here that this debate is quite similar to
"convex vs scandi grind", which is a curved edge vs a V edge.

The reason its useful to understand in this context is that the original
version of the scandi grind was not flat-ground V but was flat grind above the V,
with a convex below (a-la-clamshell single bevel grinds).

In other words, a flat-grind has never been the platonic ideal of this grind...
however it has been a default result for people who are "being economical"
including some pro chefs who sharpen single bevels this way.

Must be hard thin the knife while keeping it convex?

 

[HRC_64]

Must be hard thin the knife while keeping it convex?

Takes more skill ... which is why people cut corners ...

 

[Nemo]

Must be hard thin the knife while keeping it convex?

Not super hard.

You do a kind of single bevel sharpening on each side.

I found Join JKI videos very helpful here.