Restoring a Kasumi Finish?

[mikedtran]

Even if they don't 'scratch' you can't swirl around as though you're using a washing sponge Follow the polish pattern you want. Definitely, I'll get some loose bits too and when you've thinned down the stone it's pretty fragile and stuff breaks off, though if the stone's of regular quality there shouldn't be any deep scratches

The scratches are quite shallow they come out with 1000 grit sandpaper real easily. So my guess is I probably just need to go over it with less pressure and more patience?

 

[Smurfmacaw]

Wow! That looks great.

How long did it take and what grit/ stone progression did you use?

Basically it went 100, 150, 220, 320, 400, 800, 1500, 2000 and then the fingerstone (Jazuya I think they are). Next time I'll probably take it to 8000 and polish out with compound (diamond and CBN) to .25 micron for a mirror finish. I'm not sure how the cladding would react to that but it seems like the Damascus has layers of harder and softer steels and the harder (i.e. lighter colored parts) polishes up more and would stand out more if polished better. You can see that the edge wasn't affected by the fingerstones at all, still shiny even though I made no effort to keep the fingerstone away from the hagane.

The fingerstone part was pretty quick, it was getting the grind marks from thinning out that was time consuming.

 

[Andrew]

Basically it went 100, 150, 220, 320, 400, 800, 1500, 2000 and then the fingerstone (Jazuya I think they are). Next time I'll probably take it to 8000 and polish out with compound (diamond and CBN) to .25 micron for a mirror finish. I'm not sure how the cladding would react to that but it seems like the Damascus has layers of harder and softer steels and the harder (i.e. lighter colored parts) polishes up more and would stand out more if polished better. You can see that the edge wasn't affected by the fingerstones at all, still shiny even though I made no effort to keep the fingerstone away from the hagane.

The fingerstone part was pretty quick, it was getting the grind marks from thinning out that was time consuming.

I don't know how much time you spent, but man that shig looks awesome!

 

[DDPslice]

I think if you see the old scratches it's because you didn't either go low enough on grit and/or didn't get the uniform scratch pattern before moving up grit progression.

Unless it's the edge everything from above the primary bevel up to the spine is done with a slurry and wet/dry sandpaper progression. I make a slurry on my 1200 king with a 1200 grit pad, go over the knife then create slurry with a 3000 and 4000. Then make a slurry with 4K stone with a 4K pad then slurry with 6k, 8k pads and so on...all the way until you are mirror polishing. Then go back with a very thin flattened (on a stone or pad) piece of the uchi stone. You know when your finished when the knife is dry and still looks like it is wet (looks like it has a clear coat of nail polish/ varnish i.e. Has a depth in the metal). I've found that this uchigumori set gives a reflection on my knives like a billion microscopic glittering rainbow stars.

With the uchigumori also requires you to make slurry on the knife. Like other stones they can contain impurities which may scratch the knife which can drive you insane but if you move in an even pattern you shouldn't have uneven scratches like in the pic.

Polishing a knife takes fore.ever. Especially for me as a novice. Sometimes it'll take me all day and then some.

When I spend a lot of time I feel like im taking off all the metal but I personally think having such a good knife allows me to
keep working on my technique because when I do a god job the knife will show it.

Also read more on sword polishing and take it slow.

 

[mikedtran]

I think if you see the old scratches it's because you didn't either go low enough on grit and/or didn't get the uniform scratch pattern before moving up grit progression.

Unless it's the edge everything from above the primary bevel up to the spine is done with a slurry and wet/dry sandpaper progression. I make a slurry on my 1200 king with a 1200 grit pad, go over the knife then create slurry with a 3000 and 4000. Then make a slurry with 4K stone with a 4K pad then slurry with 6k, 8k pads and so on...all the way until you are mirror polishing. Then go back with a very thin flattened (on a stone or pad) piece of the uchi stone. You know when your finished when the knife is dry and still looks like it is wet (looks like it has a clear coat of nail polish/ varnish i.e. Has a depth in the metal). I've found that this uchigumori set gives a reflection on my knives like a billion microscopic glittering rainbow stars.

Polishing a knife takes fore.ever. Especially for me as a novice. Sometimes it'll take me all day and then some.

When I spend a lot of time I feel like im taking off all the metal but I personally think having such a good knife allows me to
keep working on my technique because when I do a god job the knife will show it.

Also read more on sword polishing and take it slow.

That is some serious dedication. I would love to see some pictures of this!

Also question on the stone you gave me which is HUGE!!!! It almost seems like a waste to flatten it down as it is so thick? Do you have a method for breaking it down or do you just flatten the thick piece into one very thin piece?

 

[Asteger]

I've spent several hours on knives just to do a 'rough' job, usually after some thinning work. However, it's just too much time and so I prefer more maintainable knives/finishes, like Heiji for eg, i also converted my old Kato to a kasumi for this reason.

 

[DDPslice]

I have some really old pics but I'll try and take some new photos soon. But cameras can never really capture the true nature of the knife. As for making hazuya/juzuya chips is pretty easy. Take a flat head or chizel and hammer and split/chip very thin pieces off. That piece I gave you is thick enough to give you tons of chips and used correctly and also by saving the slurry and drying out and saving the dust, should last you for many years.

 

[DDPslice]

http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/togi,process.html

 

[mikedtran]

Yesterday
I was feeling quite defeated after 1-2 hours of polishing and then having scratches from the finger stones. I had almost given up on a Kasumi finish. Was just going to go with a 800 or 1000 satin finish.

Today
These responses have reinvigorated me significantly and I attempted to Kasumi one side of the blade (very jet lagged now so can't complete now), but the results are much better. No serious scratches.

I did not prep the stones at all really. I just knocked off chips and then flattened them on a ATOMA 400. This seems to work alright though the pieces are quite small so the polishing will take quite a while =p

Forward
Going forward I think I want the blade to be even more polished before touching the finger stones. Today I went with a 1000 grit then to the stones. I currently have only up to 2k sand paper, I need to source some 3k and 5k sandpaper if I really want to get to mirror polish.

Feedback and comments very welcome! =)

Pictures of effort on part of the knife. Will try to finish up this weekend:

 

[YG420]

I just ordered a set of micro mesh pads from amazon, hopefully they will work on some of my knives..

 

[Asteger]

Yesterday ... I was feeling quite defeated after 1-2 hours of polishing

Enough to watch a couple shows or a sports event of your choice

My tip: learn to do it while watching tv. About the only time I'll watch something is when I do something like this, and visa versa.

I believe this approach was a favourite of the ancient masters in Japan

 

[mikedtran]

I think if you see the old scratches it's because you didn't either go low enough on grit and/or didn't get the uniform scratch pattern before moving up grit progression.

Unless it's the edge everything from above the primary bevel up to the spine is done with a slurry and wet/dry sandpaper progression. I make a slurry on my 1200 king with a 1200 grit pad, go over the knife then create slurry with a 3000 and 4000. Then make a slurry with 4K stone with a 4K pad then slurry with 6k, 8k pads and so on...all the way until you are mirror polishing. Then go back with a very thin flattened (on a stone or pad) piece of the uchi stone. You know when your finished when the knife is dry and still looks like it is wet (looks like it has a clear coat of nail polish/ varnish i.e. Has a depth in the metal). I've found that this uchigumori set gives a reflection on my knives like a billion microscopic glittering rainbow stars.

With the uchigumori also requires you to make slurry on the knife. Like other stones they can contain impurities which may scratch the knife which can drive you insane but if you move in an even pattern you shouldn't have uneven scratches like in the pic.

Polishing a knife takes fore.ever. Especially for me as a novice. Sometimes it'll take me all day and then some.

Question on what kind of pads are you using? I saw the scotchbrite pads but they only go up to about ~1.5k. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CQ6I7G/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20)

 

[mikedtran]

Enough to watch a couple shows or a sports event of your choice

My tip: learn to do it while watching tv. About the only time I'll watch something is when I do something like this, and visa versa.

I believe this approach was a favourite of the ancient masters in Japan

Hahahha I will have to try that!

I actually find the polishing at least right now quite tranquil, almost a type of meditation.

 

[Asteger]

Hahahha I will have to try that! I actually find the polishing at least right now quite tranquil, almost a type of meditation.

Music works quite well too, but I get bored of staring at a blade for 2 hours. So something on the screen that I don't have to pay real attention to is a traditional technique

 

[DDPslice]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001ENXHOI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

That's what I have 8.5/10 pretty good but not perfect, great for polishing.

If you like the "satin" finish you can go strait to the 8k,10k,12k pads then go over with the uchigumori. A clearer finish can achieved by creating a slurry with your 2k grit stone then using the same slurry from he previous pad and starting your grit progression with the pads but you should definitely invest in a 4K/6k, 8k, and 10k/12k stones.

Really if you have enough to invest in a shig then you shouldnt be buying synthetic stones. In order to have the equipment to properly maintain the quality of knife you have Jnats bring out the luster and sheen easily. And finding the right Jnats for your knife would require help from broida or maxim. The links I have previously posted relate most of this info.


Also a place with good info
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/jns-wiki/

 

[mikedtran]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001ENXHOI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

That's what I have 8.5/10 pretty good but not perfect, great for polishing.

If you like the "satin" finish you can go strait to the 8k,10k,12k pads then go over with the uchigumori. A clearer finish can achieved by creating a slurry with your 2k grit stone then using the same slurry from he previous pad and starting your grit progression with the pads but you should definitely invest in a 4K/6k, 8k, and 10k/12k stones.

Really if you have enough to invest in a shig then you shouldnt be buying synthetic stones. In order to have the equipment to properly maintain the quality of knife you have Jnats bring out the luster and sheen easily. And finding the right Jnats for your knife would require help from broida or maxim. The links I have previously posted relate most of this info.


Also a place with good info
http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/jns-wiki/

You are really making me think my next purchase should be a couple good/decent natural stones instead of a knife.

This feels like going down the rabbit hole/the next progression into a tangential/symbiotic obsession.

 

[Andrew]

Just a quick question on the kasumi finish and all this polishing... are you guys going through this level of work for user knives? Or said another way, do you use the knives after you've polished them up?

I'm still new to this, learning how to get a decent hazy finish instead of the belt sanded finish some of the knives came with, but I haven't gone crazy far and am not worried if I then goof it up on the stones.

 

[DDPslice]

@Mike
Like most hobbies you cant just buy and helmet and be content. Though when I say easy, doesn't mean that its still not hard and requires time to develop the skills/technique and feel for the work, just that you will be able to obtain the image that you had in mind for you knife. I only have my mizuno and ealy parer, my other knives are "cheap"/durable hard working knives, but hell I even debone with my mizuno that beauty is STRONG, though to be fare my de-boning is more like surgery then cutting through bones.

READ READ READ, the most powerful tool in your rep is having the knowledge to apply to the tools, as this one Jamaican lady used to say to me "work smarter not harder".

@Andrew
Im not in a pro kitchen so I polish whenever it doesn't feel as smooth as I would like. I don't know what the pro's do and how often. As I stumble through this world of Zen perfection it reflects on my knives. JBroida's and others videos are really helpful.

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

Just a point of clarification, a kasumi finish has to do with the contrast between the hagane and jigane. What is being discussed is polishing the blade face, not restoring a kasumi finish.

 

[mikedtran]

Just a point of clarification, a kasumi finish has to do with the contrast between the hagane and jigane. What is being discussed is polishing the blade face, not restoring a kasumi finish.

After the polishing though taking a finger stone to the blade will darken the cladding and create contrast as the hard core steel won't haze.

Is that correctly characterizing the Kasumi finish?

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

After the polishing though taking a finger stone to the blade will darken the cladding and create contrast as the hard core steel won't haze.

Is that correctly characterizing the Kasumi finish?

Maybe this video by Maxim will help:

[video=youtube;uzMFzDPfsws]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzMFzDPfsws[/video]

 

[Smurfmacaw]

You are really making me think my next purchase should be a couple good/decent natural stones instead of a knife.

This feels like going down the rabbit hole/the next progression into a tangential/symbiotic obsession.

I hear you on that! Knife or stone? Stone or knife? .......

 

[Smurfmacaw]

Just a quick question on the kasumi finish and all this polishing... are you guys going through this level of work for user knives? Or said another way, do you use the knives after you've polished them up?

I'm still new to this, learning how to get a decent hazy finish instead of the belt sanded finish some of the knives came with, but I haven't gone crazy far and am not worried if I then goof it up on the stones.

It all depends. To me it's a hobby so I don't mind spending the time and effort to learn to make the knives look good. That way I don't mind using them because I know I can get it looking good again if I so desire. Edge retention to me is pretty moot, I have the luxury of sharpening anytime I want and my knives never really get dull since I sharpen (or at least touch up) after I use them and don't spend long periods of time chopping things. I'm sure someone who makes their living with their knife has a totally different perspective...like does the edge last an entire shift (or more) without having to take time (aka money) to resharpen and is the knife easy to use for long periods etc.

I just enjoy learning something new....my wife says I obsess....like I said, it's a hobby.

 

[Asteger]

After the polishing though taking a finger stone to the blade will darken the cladding and create contrast as the hard core steel won't haze.
Is that correctly characterizing the Kasumi finish?

Kasumi just describes misty/cloudy/haziness and can be used as such and I don't think has to be limited to ha/jigane contrast, so I disagree with PT above. I've seen kasumi used flexibly by Japanese, for example, and so if you create a hazy polish somewhere then call this kasumi too if you want. You might also hear things like kasumi-to for a stone that'll give kasumi, or hon-kasumi for a traditional, nat-stone polish.

You can get kasumi with fingerstones, sure, or polishing with slurry or powder anywhere on the blade, or using your sharpening stones on the edge. You'd probably expect 'kasumi finishes' from sharpening stones to come from nat stones and show the polished-to-hazy hagane-to-jigane contrast PT is thinking of, but I'm sure people will refer to 'kasumi' they've got through certain synth stones as well.

There's even a line of (I think) Seki-type knives named 'Kasumi' probably just because it's a nice, poetic sort of word in Japanese.

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

Kasumi just describes misty/cloudy/haziness and can be used as such and I don't think has to be limited to ha/jigane contrast, so I disagree with PT above. I've seen kasumi used flexibly by Japanese, for example, and so if you create a hazy polish somewhere then call this kasumi too if you want. You might also hear things like kasumi-to for a stone that'll give kasumi, or hon-kasumi for a traditional, nat-stone polish.

You can get kasumi with fingerstones, sure, or polishing with slurry or powder anywhere on the blade, or using your sharpening stones on the edge. You'd probably expect 'kasumi finishes' from sharpening stones to come from nat stones and show the polished-to-hazy hagane-to-jigane contrast PT is thinking of, but I'm sure people will refer to 'kasumi' they've got through certain synth stones as well.

There's even a line of (I think) Seki-type knives named 'Kasumi' probably just because it's a nice, poetic sort of word in Japanese.

Fair enough. I've not the experience of actually having the term used by a native language speaker, so I will bow to your explanation.

 

[Yamabushi]

Asteger is correct on this. In Japanese kasumi is literally fog or haze and is not knife specific terminology.

 

[DDPslice]

From a previous thread about kasumi

http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/archive/index.php/t-17976.html
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/1832-Gritbox®?highlight=sacrilege

 

[mikedtran]

I'm actually curious for pictures of "best" or "high-quality" Kasumi. I have a used Shig so I don't know what the original Kasumi finished looked like.

What I'm attempting to get is a reflection under a darker haze.

 

[DDPslice]

I think you might be bewildered in your attempts because when most people post pictures, they want to give the best impression and not the show the actual look under normal circumstances. I listed the sword polishing links to show the means and techniques in which for you to see how it's done and how those polishers achieved their results. There are pros that this site recommends, and they do great work from what I've seen on previous threads and you can send your shig to them and im sure you'll be able to see your knife at its best. A knife made by a sword craftsman goes through some of the same rigors and polishers want to accentuate the natural lines created by the forager and the characteristics of the metal. To be frank, it requires many attempts and the correct usage of the stone and an alignment between your technique and familiarity, the stone and the knife. A certain aspect of realism comes into play after your feet are tired, hands are raw and your back is aching; a pristine polish on the knife isn't worth it every time you refine the edge. Or get it done by yourself or a pro and taking extra good care to not scratch or blemish the face. That is up to you. I still am to this day working on my own technique and finding good stones for my knives to achieve the best polish. This is a hobby that requires a lot of (first and foremost) knowledge, patience and stamina. If you have specific questions that can't be found on the world wide google and/or found on this site (and there is A LOT of information on this site by people asking the same questions), I'm here to help but it seems you need to take time to understand some of the same problems your running into have already been discussed in previous threads.

Tl;dr slow down, practice achieves the best results. Uchi stone is what I've seen helps achieve the dark haze, a 12k pad after will help bring out a semi-gloss reflection.

 

[DDPslice]

As promised pics of mine, of a kasumi finish (warning photo heavy). Please forgive my terrible pictures, I've been putting of any photography classes for ages, I guess I should go...

Going all the way through:

Starting with the beaten and battered:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwa1j-dlUS25YjFxbXh3R0VpaDQ/view?usp=sharing"]https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwa1j-dlUS25YjFxbXh3R0VpaDQ/view?usp=sharing"]https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwa1j-dlUS25YjFxbXh3R0VpaDQ/view?usp=sharing

800 King: I've decided to not take off all that metal at once and even it out quickly so you can see the high and low spots easily
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25R1ZUMUpPeXgybms"]https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25R1ZUMUpPeXgybms"]https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25R1ZUMUpPeXgybms

1200
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25d3JsajVsRy05SW8
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25UEVWbjJRbE81U0E

Koppa, really odd stone for the knife, it gives such as nice hazy polish (but rough/dry to touch) but has very small hard grains that gash through the jigane. however it brings out a REALLY nice metal work on the hagane. The picture of the heel in no way gives justice to how it looks. (wavy)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25UEVWbjJRbE81U0E
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25V1lTOXgtdGxydGc

choil shot
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25SDRzd0NYcjZQQ3c

4k on just the ha, but also I used slurry from my mejiro and a 10k soft pad to brighten up the ji just for fun
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25SWNDb210SndGZm8

skipped the iromono and went to the 12k and uchi with a 12k pad and bicarb
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwa1j-dlUS25aWU1YkFQdG9PNTA

And then more time with the uchi and 12k pad: knives got a little dirty, but ehh I was tired :/
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwa1j-dlUS25blM2X184cURtX3VBeU9KYjJ1RW9tOHplOWRV/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bwa1j-dlUS25STlCZDFUTHhscVlIdDVrSXVydUdFQWdSYjY4/view?usp=sharing

sorry about all the links i dont seem to remember how to post pictures directly