Following my last review came a comment from a good KKF member who found himself in doubt about my specs behind the edge (the 1mm BTE measurement precisely). In his sense, mine were too low. He said this from an understandable perspective: more than a few knives I tried he also tried, and also took measurements of. His seemed to consistently be about 0.1mm thicker.
Now, anyone not interested in such a discussion as it arises here can immediately skip to the real Sukenari foreword following the asterisks.
Convergence is always an interesting happenstance of life. As this member made that comment, I had the present Sukenari on its way from KnS, and I had my former Hitohira Tanaka Yohei slowly making its way to its new owner in UK. Indeed, I first started to report BTE measurements when I introduced the specs grid in December 2020 for the consecutive reviews of two knives I had bought at the same time from the same vendor: one a Kawamura Y. Tanaka W#1, one a Sukenari SG2.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/review-kawamura-y-tanaka-gyuto.50849/
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/review-sukenari-sg2-k-tip.50893/
I can clearly remember for the Kawamura review that I wanted to explain how measurements were taken for the sakes of transparency. Then I had told myself: “No one will care about all this – it just gives a ballpark”. So I went with a few precisions underneath the specs grid instead. You can see those in the reviews above, but even that I eventually dismissed at one point, for about the same reasons I had discarded a full explanation of the specs grid when I introduced it.
Now I think is time for me to lay down a few things about my measurements – precisely for sakes of transparency. I’m not trying to prove a point. He may be right, and everybody may think I’m doing this wrong after this, but I’d rather stick with my ways of measuring since these have now covered quite a few blades from quite a few makers – so they are consistent across all reviews for sure. I also have a few reasons to believe my caliper is quite alright with most measurements, cheap as it is.
Une image vaut mille mots – so there you are for the most sensitive measurement:
What I do is really simple and was devised in a way that would work for all knives AND would always represent an equal distance from the apex. Back when I started taking these measurements, my Masahiro VC was my most consistent example of a very wide edge bevel on the cutting side for an asymmetrical knife, and it was about 1.5mm wide. And that was from my sharpening, a bit wider than it actually came OOTB. As for the typically symmetrical, typically thin enough knife, the edge bevel would tend to keep around 0.5mm wide. Conclusion: 1.5mm from the apex would work with most knives, and would really represent 1mm above the edge in 95% cases of what I get to review.
I liked that better than the alternative: always measuring 1mm above the edge bevel however wide it is. My problem with that is that any asymmetrical knife with an acute edge bevel on the cutting side would present with thicker BTE specs than how it would feel in cut and how it would really compare with symmetrical knives there.
Obviously, 5mm up the edge became 6.5mm from the apex, and 10mm up became 11.5mm from the apex. From there, I always take 2-3 measurements at each point, and just went with a formula that would always relativize my measurements – even when we’re talking 0.1mm increments. So if a heel height is 46.74mm, I will use 46 in the grid; and if a spine is 3.28mm thick, I’ll make it 3.2; but if a 10mm to tip measurement is 0.83mm thick, I’ll make it 0.9mm… The main idea is to keep things conservative rather than ideal.
When BTE measurements are very low, like in the 0.05mm ballpark, the caliper does go bonkers, and that’s when I use <0.1mm. Perhaps those would really be 0.1mm, and 0.1mm would really be 0.2mm with a better caliper. Then again, probably not so much.
All this doesn’t necessarily explain why my BTE measurements would be lower. Well… I don’t think they are problematic in the slightest. Merely logical: if you look at a Yoshikane choil for example and tell me it’s impossible that the last couple millimeters to the apex can’t be 0.1mm thick… I’ll beg to disagree. You could use a choil shot as a scale, marking the point where it is 1mm thick beforehand so it’s visible in the shot, and even the naked eye would easily discern that the immediately BTE segment fits at least ten times in the 1mm thick segment. Many knives however are a bit thicker at the very heel, hence why I use measurements at Heel + 10mm in the grid.
Also, I am not the only one reporting such measurements for known thin BTE knives. On the other hand, one of the arguments laid out to me was that in that member’s experience, 0.1mm and thinner made for brittle edges. Indeed, as you’ll poke about this forum, you will see a LOT of reports of real thin BTE knives like Yoshikane, Takamura and such to have chipping tendencies. There are other factors into play in a chippy OOTB edge, steel being one and quick belt sharpening another for example, but all in all I can’t see how the chipping argument would prove my specs wrong – on the contrary.
So out of anything much to improve with this system in my mind, I still decided that I should just give an average for BTE measurements from now on, unless a unit presents with interesting taper there from heel to tip – seldom really do. Otherwise, it really is just indicative like a simple choil shot is, and the ballpark average should suffice.
*****
Our review knife:
From my first review of their SG2 K-Tip unit, I’ll now finally preface this review properly with a point I made back in December, for I think it constitutes an essential benchmark to look at this AS unit:
« This knife revels in the sheer gusto of its own blandness: the shaping of its everything is just so perfectly well-suited, so brilliantly apt, so welcomingly smoothed and rounded, that it just about feels generic. It’s almost its pitfall, that sort of… hollowness to it. But then you just reach for it, use it, wash it, and not until putting it back to storage do you stop to consider: hey, that went awesomely smooth. »
That and the pictures – and specs grid (!) – in the review linked above should suffice to sum it up.
Now, anyone not interested in such a discussion as it arises here can immediately skip to the real Sukenari foreword following the asterisks.
Convergence is always an interesting happenstance of life. As this member made that comment, I had the present Sukenari on its way from KnS, and I had my former Hitohira Tanaka Yohei slowly making its way to its new owner in UK. Indeed, I first started to report BTE measurements when I introduced the specs grid in December 2020 for the consecutive reviews of two knives I had bought at the same time from the same vendor: one a Kawamura Y. Tanaka W#1, one a Sukenari SG2.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/review-kawamura-y-tanaka-gyuto.50849/
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/review-sukenari-sg2-k-tip.50893/
I can clearly remember for the Kawamura review that I wanted to explain how measurements were taken for the sakes of transparency. Then I had told myself: “No one will care about all this – it just gives a ballpark”. So I went with a few precisions underneath the specs grid instead. You can see those in the reviews above, but even that I eventually dismissed at one point, for about the same reasons I had discarded a full explanation of the specs grid when I introduced it.
Now I think is time for me to lay down a few things about my measurements – precisely for sakes of transparency. I’m not trying to prove a point. He may be right, and everybody may think I’m doing this wrong after this, but I’d rather stick with my ways of measuring since these have now covered quite a few blades from quite a few makers – so they are consistent across all reviews for sure. I also have a few reasons to believe my caliper is quite alright with most measurements, cheap as it is.
Une image vaut mille mots – so there you are for the most sensitive measurement:
What I do is really simple and was devised in a way that would work for all knives AND would always represent an equal distance from the apex. Back when I started taking these measurements, my Masahiro VC was my most consistent example of a very wide edge bevel on the cutting side for an asymmetrical knife, and it was about 1.5mm wide. And that was from my sharpening, a bit wider than it actually came OOTB. As for the typically symmetrical, typically thin enough knife, the edge bevel would tend to keep around 0.5mm wide. Conclusion: 1.5mm from the apex would work with most knives, and would really represent 1mm above the edge in 95% cases of what I get to review.
I liked that better than the alternative: always measuring 1mm above the edge bevel however wide it is. My problem with that is that any asymmetrical knife with an acute edge bevel on the cutting side would present with thicker BTE specs than how it would feel in cut and how it would really compare with symmetrical knives there.
Obviously, 5mm up the edge became 6.5mm from the apex, and 10mm up became 11.5mm from the apex. From there, I always take 2-3 measurements at each point, and just went with a formula that would always relativize my measurements – even when we’re talking 0.1mm increments. So if a heel height is 46.74mm, I will use 46 in the grid; and if a spine is 3.28mm thick, I’ll make it 3.2; but if a 10mm to tip measurement is 0.83mm thick, I’ll make it 0.9mm… The main idea is to keep things conservative rather than ideal.
When BTE measurements are very low, like in the 0.05mm ballpark, the caliper does go bonkers, and that’s when I use <0.1mm. Perhaps those would really be 0.1mm, and 0.1mm would really be 0.2mm with a better caliper. Then again, probably not so much.
All this doesn’t necessarily explain why my BTE measurements would be lower. Well… I don’t think they are problematic in the slightest. Merely logical: if you look at a Yoshikane choil for example and tell me it’s impossible that the last couple millimeters to the apex can’t be 0.1mm thick… I’ll beg to disagree. You could use a choil shot as a scale, marking the point where it is 1mm thick beforehand so it’s visible in the shot, and even the naked eye would easily discern that the immediately BTE segment fits at least ten times in the 1mm thick segment. Many knives however are a bit thicker at the very heel, hence why I use measurements at Heel + 10mm in the grid.
Also, I am not the only one reporting such measurements for known thin BTE knives. On the other hand, one of the arguments laid out to me was that in that member’s experience, 0.1mm and thinner made for brittle edges. Indeed, as you’ll poke about this forum, you will see a LOT of reports of real thin BTE knives like Yoshikane, Takamura and such to have chipping tendencies. There are other factors into play in a chippy OOTB edge, steel being one and quick belt sharpening another for example, but all in all I can’t see how the chipping argument would prove my specs wrong – on the contrary.
So out of anything much to improve with this system in my mind, I still decided that I should just give an average for BTE measurements from now on, unless a unit presents with interesting taper there from heel to tip – seldom really do. Otherwise, it really is just indicative like a simple choil shot is, and the ballpark average should suffice.
*****
Our review knife:
From my first review of their SG2 K-Tip unit, I’ll now finally preface this review properly with a point I made back in December, for I think it constitutes an essential benchmark to look at this AS unit:
« This knife revels in the sheer gusto of its own blandness: the shaping of its everything is just so perfectly well-suited, so brilliantly apt, so welcomingly smoothed and rounded, that it just about feels generic. It’s almost its pitfall, that sort of… hollowness to it. But then you just reach for it, use it, wash it, and not until putting it back to storage do you stop to consider: hey, that went awesomely smooth. »
That and the pictures – and specs grid (!) – in the review linked above should suffice to sum it up.
