Rika 5000 problem

Discussion in 'The Kitchen Knife' started by andrixxx94, Nov 24, 2019.

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums by donating:

  1. Nov 24, 2019 #1

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2017
    Messages:
    22
    Hello, I wanted some information from you. I’m new in the world of sharpening stones, I’ve been learning for more than a month. Today I sharpened my knife and I noticed passing to 5000 rika suehiro that after a while of pasting I have as lost the razor edge of the knife, is this possible or did I wrong something? thanks for the answers
     
  2. Nov 24, 2019 #2

    M1k3

    M1k3

    M1k3

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2018
    Messages:
    746
    Crushed edge? Wobbling? Some errant piece of material on the stone?
     
  3. Nov 24, 2019 #3

    GorillaGrunt

    GorillaGrunt

    GorillaGrunt

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2016
    Messages:
    822
    Probably either incomplete deburring or wobbling/not maintaining the angle between stones. I remember having this problem when I started, feeling that sometimes I’d move to a finer stone and get a less sharp edge especially if it feels “slippy” on a paper towel or fingernail.
     
    adrianopedro likes this.
  4. Nov 25, 2019 #4

    Benuser

    Benuser

    Benuser

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    5,851
    Strop and deburr on the previous stone.
    In your progression, don't go to the next stone until you can't reduce the burr any further and it only flips without getting smaller. Unless the blade has been very well maintained, you will stay quite long with the first stone.
     
  5. Nov 25, 2019 #5

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2017
    Messages:
    22
    I thank you for your answer and now I will give some information: I sharpened two knives a wasabi kai 18 cm and a Masamoto VG Series Petty 14 cm. As for the stones I used to start king hyper 1000 a Naniwa lobster 3000 and finally 5k rika.
    So let's start from the assumption that I don't know exactly if I keep the corner well, but I don't think I'm doing a bad job. after that I don't know what it means what you are saying to me, in the sense of the burr of the knife, when I can see that I can move on to the next stone?
     
  6. Nov 25, 2019 #6

    Benuser

    Benuser

    Benuser

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    5,851
    Marker, loupe and burr will tell you whether you've reached the very edge with the first stone. Than it's time to strop: by very light edge trailing strokes you reduce the burr as much as possible. Each time the burr will flip, but it gets reduced as well. Don't expect it to disappear entirely on a 1k stone. Once it doesn't get smaller it's time to go to the next, finer stone.
    Try a few strokes along the edge on a fine stone before that, though.
    With some simple carbon steel blades the burr will come off when sufficiently reduced. Don't expect it to happen with those very charged stainless: you have to abrade the burr very carefully with a minimal pressure to avoid creating a new one.
    VG-10 is notorious for its difficult deburring.
    As for the Kai Wasabi, I have poor experiences with it. Huge carbides clumping together. I don't think looking for any refinement is a good idea. If I had to sharpen one again, I would stay with a coarse stone, deburr at 1k and STOP. Perhaps their Heat Treatment has changed since.
     
    Brian Weekley likes this.
  7. Nov 25, 2019 #7

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2017
    Messages:
    22
    Unfortunately you talk to me about trimming the knife, but I still haven't figured out when to realize it and then move on to the next stone, if there were any videos to see in order to understand I'd appreciate it, what do you think about it
     
  8. Nov 25, 2019 #8

    M1k3

    M1k3

    M1k3

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2018
    Messages:
    746
    Japanese Knife Imports sharpening playlist on YouTube.
     
    SeattleBen likes this.
  9. Nov 25, 2019 #9

    Benuser

    Benuser

    Benuser

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    5,851
    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEBF55079F53216AB
    Mr Broida's videos and lectures are by far the best I know.
    The traditional sequence is: raising a burr, chasing it, getting rid of it.
    Chasing is performing the edge trailing strokes. The longitudinal strokes follow. All before going to the next stone.
     
    M1k3 likes this.
  10. Nov 25, 2019 #10

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2017
    Messages:
    22
    Ok thanks a lot for the video, at the moment i'm out for work but later i'll watch it and I'll let you know

    instead what do you think about my sharpening stones?
     
  11. Nov 25, 2019 #11

    Benuser

    Benuser

    Benuser

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    5,851
    With the Wasabi you might need a coarser one, think 400-500.
     
  12. Nov 25, 2019 #12

    Michi

    Michi

    Michi

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2019
    Messages:
    1,484
    Location:
    Brisbane, Australia
    I went through the same thing when I started out. For me, it was too much pressure on the finishing stone. Once I learned to back off and go very lightly, I got stupidly sharp edges very quickly. So, go easy on the finishing stone, otherwise you end up crushing the edge that you so carefully established earlier.
     
  13. Nov 25, 2019 #13

    kayman67

    kayman67

    kayman67

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2019
    Messages:
    423
    Location:
    EU
    Pressure alongside consistency. Give it time to get these going as, most likely, you started sharpening the wrong way.

    What Naniwa 3000 is that?
     
  14. Nov 25, 2019 #14

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2017
    Messages:
    22
    surely I won't have a way to sharpen as a professional and that's why I ask you if it's possible to tell me just the videos to watch for example because the youtube link I saw above is a playlist of 30 videos or maybe more. the 3000 is a naniwa lobster I don't know if you know it, but as a stone it doesn't seem to me much because I see it very hard as a stone or maybe I'm wrong .. for the finer grits I have a 400 that I took to Paris at the store of the Japanese knife company of their own brand and it does not seem very good to me also because when I use it I eat the knife a lot and it takes so much to sharpen it, what do you think I should buy new and if so what?
     
  15. Nov 25, 2019 #15

    kayman67

    kayman67

    kayman67

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2019
    Messages:
    423
    Location:
    EU
  16. Nov 25, 2019 #16

    Benuser

    Benuser

    Benuser

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    5,851
    What is exactly the problem with that coarse one you already have? Not sure I understand. A coarse stone that cuts aggressively is rather encouraging, I'd say. Better than one that leaves scratches without abrading much.
     
    M1k3 likes this.
  17. Nov 25, 2019 #17

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2017
    Messages:
    22
    I wanted to say that my 400 stone that I have when I start to work on it is a stone that consumes so much the knife is as if the stone were eating it .. it was what I wanted to say and I don't even see great results after which
     
  18. Nov 25, 2019 #18

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2017
    Messages:
    22
  19. Nov 25, 2019 #19

    M1k3

    M1k3

    M1k3

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2018
    Messages:
    746
    I'd start with the 400 stone when the knife is extremely dull, chip repair and thinning.
     
  20. Nov 25, 2019 #20

    kayman67

    kayman67

    kayman67

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2019
    Messages:
    423
    Location:
    EU
    These guys at Naniwa have like 15 different stone series. It's just crazy. So they took the economical to a bigger size and made a new line. Unfortunately my experience with these economical stones is pretty bad.
     
  21. Nov 25, 2019 #21

    da_mich*

    da_mich*

    da_mich*

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2019
    Messages:
    48
    Location:
    Germany / Bavaria
    Another problem could be too much preassure. reduce preassure with higher grids. Low steel quality could be another problem too
     
  22. Nov 25, 2019 #22

    Nemo

    Nemo

    Nemo

    Staff Member Global Moderators

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    Messages:
    4,235
    Location:
    Southern NSW (Aus)
    Sharpening is a very attainable skill. But it is a skill and it does require you to put a bit of effort into learning it. You are probably not gonna pick everything up in a single 5 minute video. You can learn basic sharpening fairly quickly... but... it will take a lot of expericence to master it.

    Did you read through the playlist? The videos are 5 or 10 minutes each and each demonstrates a facet of the sharpening skill in a way that helps you avoid the pitfalls that often create sharpening problems. They are made by a guy who really knows his stuff and has a talent for explaining it in an accessible way. These videos have probaly taught thousands of people to sharpen. You won't need to see all of the videos at once, as some of them are about aspects of knives other than sharpening and quite a few are specifically about single bevel (traditional japanese knife) sharpening. Some of the questions that you have asked are addressed in the linked videos. They will give a perspective on sharpening that will inform your questions.

    I also found the knifeplanet.net sharpening school quite helpful. It has fewer videos but they are longer.
     
    captaincaed and M1k3 like this.
  23. Nov 25, 2019 #23

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2017
    Messages:
    22
    Thank you very much for your answers and you are very kind and helpful. So I went very light with the 5000 rika stone with the Masamoto VG Series Petty 14 cm and I think it's more a steel problem or am I mistaken the way to sharpen with the taller grits. I would also like to get myself a nice Peter kit and the last two I bought are the king hyper 1000 and the rika 5000 and I would like to take the other two and buy some more beautiful and useful, can you give me some advice?
     
  24. Nov 25, 2019 #24

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2017
    Messages:
    22
    I saw the first two videos of knifeplanet.net the first video explains how to sharpen and I do not sharpen it with this technique we say that mine is really different, but I noticed that I go slightly lower with the angle so I will have to improve in this and and moreover I put pressure both when I go up and when I go down at the moment of sharpening, I don't know if I have explained myself well, is it right? because I seem to see from the video that he presses when he goes up but when he goes down with the knife on the stone to return to the starting position he does not put pressure on. you hold that this sharpening technique is effective because I have seen many sharpening videos but never like that, I ask you experts in short, even if you are sharpened in this way. instead in the second video explains how to sharpen in 10 minutes, very useful video but I see that he used a different technique
     
  25. Nov 25, 2019 #25

    kayman67

    kayman67

    kayman67

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2019
    Messages:
    423
    Location:
    EU
    Could you give an example from a video you found, how you do it?
     
  26. Nov 25, 2019 #26

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2017
    Messages:
    22
    First video:

    2nd video:
     
  27. Nov 25, 2019 #27

    Benuser

    Benuser

    Benuser

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    5,851
    Starting sharpening with a thin, simple carbon steel blade can be helpful to get the basics. Think a Robert Herder 'Windmill' breakfast knife.
     
    captaincaed likes this.
  28. Nov 25, 2019 #28

    kayman67

    kayman67

    kayman67

    Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2019
    Messages:
    423
    Location:
    EU
    Peter Nowlan usually has a good approach on things. He did change some things at some point, so you might want to see them all or start with latest maybe.

    This being said, I don't do the same. Similar sometimes, but not the same. And maybe there's a slightly different change, at least, with most of us. So you need to find a rhythm, something that works for you. That style might not even work for you that well. And if you don't have enough pressure and consistency control to finish edge leading even on the softer stones, you are missing some sharpening potential.
     
  29. Nov 26, 2019 #29

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    andrixxx94

    Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2017
    Messages:
    22
    OK about the stones what you advise me, I had written before but nobody answered me
     
  30. Nov 26, 2019 #30

    Benuser

    Benuser

    Benuser

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    5,851
    There's a problem here. People are reluctant to suggest a coarse stone to a novice. If badly used serious damage can be caused. One cannot put back what got abraded.
    That’s why people are being advised to start with a 1k.
    Coarser stones are very useful for removing some steel or dealing with highly abrasion resistant steel types like the Wasabi.
    If I had to sharpen one I would probably start with a Shapton 320 or 220 followed by a Chosera 400 or 500, deburr on a 800 and stop. Rough split leather in between, perhaps.
    A Chosera 400 (Naniwa Professional) isn't the fastest cutter but has a lot of versatility, depending on the pressure you're applying and more or less water and more or less mud.
    Most work is to be done with the first stone. The only reason we need finer ones is to get rid of the small burr they inevitably leave. If used properly, they already produce a scary sharp edge. A bit rough, though. With further refinement smoother cutting can be obtained, depending on the steel.
     
    Carl Kotte and kayman67 like this.

Share This Page