Sabatier chef knife

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Artur

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"Dear knife community!
I want to buy a 25 cm chef knife.
I don't know whether to buy carbon steel or stainless steel! I work as a cook in the kitchen!
My second question: KSabatier, Sabatier elephant, Sabatier Déglon, Sabatier Lion)
Which of these manufacturers is better?
Thanks"
 

Benuser

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Others are far more competent about the use of carbon, semi-stainless or stainless in the professional kitchen. About carbons: I do love my vintage carbon Sabs, but the ones coming nowadays out of the factory are in the best case to be seen as project knives requiring some work. A lot of them though will come with more serious flaws as bends and warps which hardly can be addressed. It's really a lottery. QC seems to be absent in Thiers.
If it's the Sab profile profile you're looking for the closest are the Robert Herder 1922 23cm chef's and the Misono Swedish Carbon 240 gyuto.
 

Artur

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Mások sokkal kompetensebbek a szén, a félig rozsdamentes vagy rozsdamentes acél professzionális konyhában való felhasználásában. A karbonokról: Imádom a vintage karbon Sab-eimet, de a manapság a gyárból kikerülőket a legjobb esetben úgy tekinthetjük, mint egy munkát igénylő projektkést. Sokuknak azonban komolyabb hibái is lesznek, mint például hajlítások és vetemedések, amelyeket alig lehet orvosolni. Ez tényleg egy lottó. Úgy tűnik, hogy a QC hiányzik Thiersből.
Ha a Sab profilt keresi a legközelebb, akkor a Robert Herder 1922 23 cm-es séf és a Misono Swedish Carbon 240 gyuto.
Misono Blade 70%-30%
ez jó ?
hard sharpening (
Others are far more competent about the use of carbon, semi-stainless or stainless in the professional kitchen. About carbons: I do love my vintage carbon Sabs, but the ones coming nowadays out of the factory are in the best case to be seen as project knives requiring some work. A lot of them though will come with more serious flaws as bends and warps which hardly can be addressed. It's really a lottery. QC seems to be absent in Thiers.
If it's the Sab profile profile you're looking for the closest are the Robert Herder 1922 23cm chef's and the Misono Swedish Carbon 240 gyuto.
Misono Blade 70%-30%
ez jó ?
hard sharpening (
 

Benuser

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No. Basically, the geometry of a Misono is not much different from a Sabatier. When the Japanese started making Western knives, end 19th century, the Sab was a model for makers everywhere in the world. Sheffield and Solingen applied the same idea: right face overall convex, left face flat excepted for the last 1.5cm (9/16") where an abrupt curve was applied to join the edge. All Japanese makers did, was moving the edge to the left, making that left curve less pronounced and enhancing food release on the right side. They could do so, because left-handers were splendidly ignored in Japanese culture of those days, to put it mildly.
Even today, Sabs and similars are better off with a slightly off-centered edge, supposing use by a right-hander.
Left-handers better have an inverted geometry. No geometry is optimal for both right- an left-handers. I'm well aware left-handers are used to cope with sub-optimal solutions in a right-handers' world. In my own country is was perfectly common until halfway the sixties to force left-handed children to learn writing with their right hand, with very poor results.
A strictly symmetric geometry, where both sides are each other's mirror image, would be a poor performer. Expect dramatic wedging except for both sides being more or less equally flat as with lasers: in which case food release is very poor.
Now, is sharpening of a Misono especially hard? Yes, if your sharpening consist of applying identical strokes on either side.
I hope you don't mind if I call that a poor sharpening practice. I will develop.
Sharpening is not about putting an edge at the end of a piece of steel. It's about restoring a previous configuration in a new, slightly thicker place.
When sharpening, you may start on one side, far behind the edge, at the lowest possible angle. Perhaps at 1.5mm above the left face, and the double on the right side if you care about scratching. From there on, raise the spine only little by little until the edge has been reached, and a burr has been raised on the other side. Use a permanent marker and a loupe to check whether the old bevel has been entirely removed. Don't just rely on the burr you've raised on the other side, as burrs start developing before the very edge has been reached, as marker and scratch pattern will tell you. Too often sharpening is started with say a 500 grit while the old 3000 grit edge is still there. Your nail will confirm. A 500 grit edge feels different.
Once the old bevel removed go to the other side and do the same, starting again far behind the edge.
As burrs have been raised on both sides, and you verified with a loupe, you're sure that the bevels have met and an edge is there. You will have to thoroughly deburr both sides, applying still lighter strokes. Until the burr only flips without getting smaller, even with the lightest stroke, you stay with the same stone, before repeating the entire procedure with a finer one. This deburring is not the most pleasant part of the work, and it isn't always possible to keep applying very light edge leading strokes. Better stop in time and go on another day. There's no shortcut. Don't expect finer stones to solve problems you didn't address where they occurred: with the first, coarse stone.
You will have noticed that I didn't speak about angles or proportion, asymmetry or off-centered edges.
All I'm aiming for, is having bevels who are the following of the blade's geometry. The approach will work as long as you're fine with the previous geometry. If the Misono is your first Japanese Western, you may experience steering. More thinning behind the edge on the right side, and increasing the final angle on the left one, will improve the balance of friction with both sides. It's common to provide the left side with an edge at some 15°, while the convex bevel at the right will end at about 10°. By the way: I do sharpen my vintage Sabs and Sheffields, and modern Robert Herders in exactly the same way. With a loose grip you will get used to compensate for the remaining steering by finding the right position until the day that you will cut straight with a hankotsu.
 

Artur

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No. Basically, the geometry of a Misono is not much different from a Sabatier. When the Japanese started making Western knives, end 19th century, the Sab was a model for makers everywhere in the world. Sheffield and Solingen applied the same idea: right face overall convex, left face flat excepted for the last 1.5cm (9/16") where an abrupt curve was applied to join the edge. All Japanese makers did, was moving the edge to the left, making that left curve less pronounced and enhancing food release on the right side. They could do so, because left-handers were splendidly ignored in Japanese culture of those days, to put it mildly.
Even today, Sabs and similars are better off with a slightly off-centered edge, supposing use by a right-hander.
Left-handers better have an inverted geometry. No geometry is optimal for both right- an left-handers. I'm well aware left-handers are used to cope with sub-optimal solutions in a right-handers' world. In my own country is was perfectly common until halfway the sixties to force left-handed children to learn writing with their right hand, with very poor results.
A strictly symmetric geometry, where both sides are each other's mirror image, would be a poor performer. Expect dramatic wedging except for both sides being more or less equally flat as with lasers: in which case food release is very poor.
Now, is sharpening of a Misono especially hard? Yes, if your sharpening consist of applying identical strokes on either side.
I hope you don't mind if I call that a poor sharpening practice. I will develop.
Sharpening is not about putting an edge at the end of a piece of steel. It's about restoring a previous configuration in a new, slightly thicker place.
When sharpening, you may start on one side, far behind the edge, at the lowest possible angle. Perhaps at 1.5mm above the left face, and the double on the right side if you care about scratching. From there on, raise the spine only little by little until the edge has been reached, and a burr has been raised on the other side. Use a permanent marker and a loupe to check whether the old bevel has been entirely removed. Don't just rely on the burr you've raised on the other side, as burrs start developing before the very edge has been reached, as marker and scratch pattern will tell you. Too often sharpening is started with say a 500 grit while the old 3000 grit edge is still there. Your nail will confirm. A 500 grit edge feels different.
Once the old bevel removed go to the other side and do the same, starting again far behind the edge.
As burrs have been raised on both sides, and you verified with a loupe, you're sure that the bevels have met and an edge is there. You will have to thoroughly deburr both sides, applying still lighter strokes. Until the burr only flips without getting smaller, even with the lightest stroke, you stay with the same stone, before repeating the entire procedure with a finer one. This deburring is not the most pleasant part of the work, and it isn't always possible to keep applying very light edge leading strokes. Better stop in time and go on another day. There's no shortcut. Don't expect finer stones to solve problems you didn't address where they occurred: with the first, coarse stone.
You will have noticed that I didn't speak about angles or proportion, asymmetry or off-centered edges.
All I'm aiming for, is having bevels who are the following of the blade's geometry. The approach will work as long as you're fine with the previous geometry. If the Misono is your first Japanese Western, you may experience steering. More thinning behind the edge on the right side, and increasing the final angle on the left one, will improve the balance of friction with both sides. It's common to provide the left side with an edge at some 15°, while the convex bevel at the right will end at about 10°. By the way: I do sharpen my vintage Sabs and Sheffields, and modern Robert Herders in exactly the same way. With a loose grip you will get used to compensate for the remaining steering by finding the right position until the day that you will cut straight with a hankotsu.
I can't even sharpen my 50/50 knives very professionally yet.
The Misono Carbon 70/30 I guess I won't be able to at all (
And how do you sharpen your Misono ?
One side 12 degrees the other 20 degrees ?)))
 

Benuser

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I can't even sharpen my 50/50 knives very professionally yet.
The Misono Carbon 70/30 I guess I won't be able to at all (
And how do you sharpen your Misono ?
One side 12 degrees the other 20 degrees ?)))
I believe I had given you a description of how ignoring figures like angles and proportions. But as you're insisting, as jig-users use to do: for the right side I'd suggest to start far behind the edge, and end at 10°. Go on until the factory edge is gone, and check so with a marker and a loupe. The left side gets a narrow 15° bevel. Once the first sharpening being done, you may want to thin further behind the edge on the right side, to make bevel and face forming one continuous arc. Once you're fine with the found balance make sure to thin both sides with next sharpening.
My own Misono gets convex bevels on both sides, ending with said figures. But steering doesn't bother me.
 
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Benuser

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If symmetric edges matter that much: Robert Herder has hugely raised its prices. Böker has recently introduced this series, which is an evident answer. It's no Herder though, and can use a good thinning. That said, even an expensive Herder or a Misono will benefit from a good sharpening prior to first use. The thinning is a bit more work. So you will need a really coarse stone, e.g. a Shapton Glass 320 that will also serve you with any other new knife to get rid of the usually weak factory edges. After thinning you have an excellent performer for very little money.
 
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