sandy produce?

[sumis]

Only to people with a genetic disorder

again, no, it’s just a childish disorder. the people who can taste the soap are not the same group as the people who dislikes coriander. no excuse for having an underdeveloped mouth

.

 

[SwampDonkey]

I can kinda taste the soap thing if I'm lazy and cut up a bunch of the stems with the leaves and use too much of it, but god I love the leaves.

 

[Benuser]

It's an elephant four star.

Amongst the best carbon Sabs.
Should take and hold a much less conservative edge. Wondering about those crushed herbs. Did you use walking? Only soft German stainless seem to hold the lateral forces that are involved with it. I'm familiar with a strict vertical motion without any balancing is being used with the large flat section, and the knife is held by both hands: one behind the fingerguard and one pinching the middle of the blade.

 

[noj]

Amongst the best carbon Sabs.
Should take and hold a much less conservative edge. Wondering about those crushed herbs. Did you use walking? Only soft German stainless seem to hold the lateral forces that are involved with it. I'm familiar with a strict vertical motion without any balancing is being used with the large flat section, and the knife is held by both hands: one behind the fingerguard and one pinching the middle of the blade.

Just to be clear, the issue with the sand was a Masamoto KS gyuto, and I tried the vertical motion because of what was said on a video. There was no walking.

When I use the Sab (or anything else) with herbs, I normally guillotine and glide, or just glide depending how things feel. The Sab crushes herbs more with the 25 DPS edge. I have used the Sab for just about everything at one time or another. It just doesn't hold and edge; the steel seems very soft.

 

[Benuser]

The Sab crushes herbs more with the 25 DPS edge. I have used the Sab for just about everything at one time or another. It just doesn't hold and edge; the steel seems very soft.

The steel is very soft. It requires daily maintenance: the finest stone or a polished steel rod. Increasing the sharpening angle is no solution as you've found out: it still remains soft, but performance diminishes beyond what is acceptable.

 

[chefwp]

I’ve never understood the soap thing. Cilantro just tastes nauseating, as in literally vomit inducing. Even the smell has been able to set off the family, although weirdly enough most of them outgrew it. I am the lone, genetic anomaly with a same-same but different mutation from the soap thing who hasn’t outgrown it. My crusade against the herb is as unceaseless as the one against shallots. So many dishes wasted with the addition of the former, so much money wasted with the purchases of the latter

 

[chefwp]

People are triggered by different things when eating. It could be finding a hair in their food, which is kinda gross I have to agree. Some people can't handle the sounds of other people eating, this one even has a name, "misophonia." My own is when I'm chewing and I bite down on a grain of sand or dirt, I'm liable to spit out everything in my mouth immediately. If your hitting it on your cutting board, it's going into peoples' mouths, perhaps be more mindful of how you are washing your herbs. Do more than rinse; submerge them in water, swish them around, then spin them dry.

 

[noj]

The steel is very soft. It requires daily maintenance: the finest stone or a polished steel rod. Increasing the sharpening angle is no solution as you've found out: it still remains soft, but performance diminishes beyond what is acceptable.

Interesting, have to try that. I had asked about it somewhere before, but never heard/tried what you suggested.

 

[Benuser]

Interesting, have to try that. I had asked about it somewhere before, but never heard/tried what you suggested.

I found the old thread. sharpening the tip of a knife
From what you described then, we even didn't discuss how to maintain an edge or how far to go in grits, as your knife seemed not to take any edge. I wrote:
Something went very, very wrong with the Heat Treatment. Or it is simply a counterfeit.

 

[noj]

I found the old thread. sharpening the tip of a knife
From what you described then, we even didn't discuss how to maintain an edge or how far to go in grits, as your knife seemed not to take any edge. I wrote:
Something went very, very wrong with the Heat Treatment. Or it is simply a counterfeit.

Thanks for looking that up. If it looked like I was calling you out personally, that was definitely not my intent. What I said was my recollection of something said, probably not you, maybe not even my thread.

I'll ease the shoulders, and try what you suggested. It will never be a favorite, but it would be more useful if the profile was less similar to a drywall knife.

 

[Benuser]

I found the old thread. sharpening the tip of a knife
From what you described then, we even didn't discuss how to maintain an edge or how far to go in grits, as your knife seemed not to take any edge. I wrote:
Something went very, very wrong with the Heat Treatment. Or it is simply a counterfeit.

As we could exclude all common causes for steel not taking a decent edge — overly steeling, uncooled grinders — just to suggest a last possible cause: overheating. Have seen a carbon knife that was left for a few hours on an oven — 200°C, about 400°F. Lost a few Rc points at the edge.

 

[mengwong]

Just to be clear, the issue with the sand was a Masamoto KS gyuto, and I tried the vertical motion because of what was said on a video. There was no walking.

When I use the Sab (or anything else) with herbs, I normally guillotine and glide, or just glide depending how things feel. The Sab crushes herbs more with the 25 DPS edge. I have used the Sab for just about everything at one time or another. It just doesn't hold and edge; the steel seems very soft.

As discussed upthread, the HRC is probably to blame, but that aside, this paper might introduce a new line of inquiry:

http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/SET_research.pdf

The argument from the paper is that, in short, a 25dps edge might require so much force — as you say it has been crushing herbs – that the soft steel is mushrooming against the board. Reducing the edge angle might counterintuitively rearrange the factors so as to reduce cutting force and improve edge retention.

Hence the remark

Increasing the sharpening angle is no solution as you've found out

 

[noj]

As discussed upthread, the HRC is probably to blame, but that aside, this paper might introduce a new line of inquiry:

http://knifegrinders.com.au/SET/SET_research.pdf

The argument from the paper is that, in short, a 25dps edge might require so much force — as you say it has been crushing herbs – that the soft steel is mushrooming against the board. Reducing the edge angle might counterintuitively rearrange the factors so as to reduce cutting force and improve edge retention.

Hence the remark

Shoulder easing, WIP with 300 grit King.

I suspect the 25 DPS requires more force primarily because of material being deflected rapidly (compared to less DPS). Helping that along is the TBE of 0.4 mm (at ~1 mm). Though, as the article shows, this changes with use.

 

[Benuser]

I would aim for a thickness behind the edge of 0.2mm. 0.4 combined with a 25dps edge is asking for troubles. Reducing thickness BTE by the half is a serious job. Then I would go for 15dps and convex it a bit with finer stones, probably ending around 18°. If the steel is really too soft to take an edge you will notice the impossibility of deburring already with the first stone.

 

[noj]

I would aim for a thickness behind the edge of 0.2mm. 0.4 combined with a 25dps edge is asking for troubles. Reducing thickness BTE by the half is a serious job. Then I would go for 15dps and convex it a bit with finer stones, probably ending around 18°. If the steel is really too soft to take an edge you will notice the impossibility of deburring already with the first stone.

It's back to the future. I had it thinned and (edge) sharpened like that, but had given up on it. I'll try one more time.

 

[Benuser]

It's back to the future. I had it thinned and (edge) sharpened like that, but had given up on it. I'll try one more time.

You will soon find out if it is a HT problem, and may abandon any further work. If it doesn't take a 15dps edge as the impossible deburring on the coarsest stone might learn you, no need to try with finer stones or starting the thinning BTE. In that case the blade is simply lost.

 

[noj]

You will soon find out if it is a HT problem, and may abandon any further work. If it doesn't take a 15dps edge as the impossible deburring on the coarsest stone might learn you, no need to try with finer stones or starting the thinning BTE. In that case the blade is simply lost.

Thanks, that will save me some time.

 

[Jovidah]

Sandy herbs are annoying, they scratch the glass cutting board!

 

[noj]

Thanks, that will save me some time.

I thinned to about 0.2 mm BTE. It look a while to re-profile the 25 dps to 15. I could see a double bevel (two discrete angles) on it at first. I started with 340 grit SP. I could get rid of any burrs by feel, but not shiny spots along the edge in sunshine. I spent more time on the 340 to make sure I reached the apex along the whole edge (by feeling burr a second time, or was it a third time). I got the same result whether deburring leading or trailing edge. Even though I always deburr starting with a clean (freshly rinsed) stone, I was not convinced the shiny spots were burrs, or dings in the edge from stone grit. I stropped on leather (which I usually don't) and the fact that they didn't go away makes me think they are not burrs. It was obviously rough cutting newspaper.

I moved on to 1000 SP, with similar results, and smaller shiny spots. I got the shiny spots to go away with mostly trailing edge stropping on a BB.

FWIW, this was the knife I spent most of my time first learning sharpening on. It brings back the frustrations I had until I discovered "better" steel.

I am willing to experiment more, but my conclusions are: wash my vegies better, and this is a junk knife.

 

[Benuser]

Burrs are not very reliable to establish whether the very edge has been reached. Certainly in projects like these — substantial changes in geometry, perhaps quite some pressure involved — I never rely on burrs only, but use sharpie and loupe. Even with maintenance thinning, burrs do appear long, long before the very edge got reached. In this case the half of the steel BTE would have been abraded, and a 25dps edge changed into a 15dps.
I really don't understand why you did leave your initial stone before the reflections were gone. It was all evident that the bevels didn't meet. Solve problems where they do appear, was one of the first things I learned when beginning with sharpening. No chance you will solve them with a finer stone.
So, you were far to early to leave the first stone. Normally, you go to the finer stone when the burr only flips without getting smaller anymore. I know, deburring with a coarse stone is no fun. Usually, the first stone takes some ¾ of the time I spend with the entire progression. There are no shortcuts. And you left the first stone not so much without deburring, but even worse: before the bevels where meeting and formed an edge. What we have here is the old, rounded 25dps edge with on top an accumulation of debris of the beginning of a sharpening procedure which hasn't been fulfilled. In the other thread about what later has appeared to be the same knife my conclusion was something went very, very wrong with the blade's HT. After your very own description I'm no longer so sure about that being the cause of its poor performing.

 

[noj]

Burrs are not very reliable to establish whether the very edge has been reached. Certainly in projects like these — substantial changes in geometry, perhaps quite some pressure involved — I never rely on burrs only, but use sharpie and loupe. Even with maintenance thinning, burrs do appear long, long before the very edge got reached. In this case the half of the steel BTE would have been abraded, and a 25dps edge changed into a 15dps.
I really don't understand why you did leave your initial stone before the reflections were gone. It was all evident that the bevels didn't meet. Solve problems where they do appear, was one of the first things I learned when beginning with sharpening. No chance you will solve them with a finer stone.
So, you were far to early to leave the first stone. Normally, you go to the finer stone when the burr only flips without getting smaller anymore. I know, deburring with a coarse stone is no fun. Usually, the first stone takes some ¾ of the time I spend with the entire progression. There are no shortcuts. And you left the first stone not so much without deburring, but even worse: before the bevels where meeting and formed an edge. What we have here is the old, rounded 25dps edge with on top an accumulation of debris of the beginning of a sharpening procedure which hasn't been fulfilled. In the other thread about what later has appeared to be the same knife my conclusion was something went very, very wrong with the blade's HT. After your very own description I'm no longer so sure about that being the cause of its poor performing.

OK, I will grind the heck out of it on 340, but don't have much hope.

I so have a lot of time spend on this blade, and it never worked out before. I will still be careful with how it's done, so I don't introduce errors due to attitude;-)

 

[noj]

OK, I will grind the heck out of it on 340, but don't have much hope.

I so have a lot of time spend on this blade, and it never worked out before. I will still be careful with how it's done, so I don't introduce errors due to attitude;-)

Bumped down to King 300. Looks a lot better under bright indoor light. Tried refining on Chosera 400, but wasn't pleased - felt and looked rougher. Will wait for sunlight to inspect it.

Tried magic marker; I usually don't because I trust inspecting the edge (apex and bevel) more - but that's just me.

 

[Benuser]

Tried magic marker; I usually don't because I trust inspecting the edge (apex and bevel) more - but that's just me.

Looking at the scratch pattern will work as well, and making sure there's no swarf on top. Not with a naked edge, though.

 

[noj]

I couldn't do anything with sharpening yesterday because ophthalmologist put (guessing fluorescent) dye in my eyes, and then dilatated my pupils. Everything is healthy though, just a little near-sighted.

I didn't see any issue is sunlight, except a bit at the heel. I carefully finished refining with Chosera 400. Same thing on SP 1000, next a BB adding a tiny bit of convexity, finished on Super Stone 8000, lightly stropped on leather. I ended with leading edge strop on every stone. The edge looks good in the light. The bevel is very bright and polished; larger than I am used to because it's not all that TBE. Seemed smooth on newspaper. Popped about a dozen hairs off my forearm. After the thinning, and the old bevel, it was easier to sharpen than I remember. I must have learned something around here;-)

Now, I have to see if it holds up any better just using fine stones to realign the edge. As a first test, I am making a big pot of minestrone. Not expecting much, but it will be a fair test - good technique and no sandy produce.

 

[mengwong]

Bravo, bravo… photos please!

 

[Benuser]

At least we now know nothing is wrong with the HT. Otherwise it wouldn't take any edge, what you experience as the impossibility to deburr, the burr flipping with the lightest contact so it can't get abraded.

 

[noj]

My pictures aren't great, but that's all my phone camera seems to do. It auto-focuses on things I don't want it to focus on, and I can't fiddle with settings to increase the focus depth. I did lightly etch the blade after thinning, so you can see where the edge work was done.

The knife:

My kitchen counter afterwards ;-)

Minestrone test this afternoon. The trick will be seeing if it responds to a touch-up afterwards. I'll look for a fine stone that's a lot harder than a Super Stone - which I know isn't saying much.

 

[noj]

Definitely not meant as criticism, but it didn't seem to pass the minestrone test.

It was a lot of vegies, and I have about 2 gallons of thick soup. No sand. Potatoes and carrots peeled. Anything that might have been sandy was washed, and then soaked (so I could see if any sand was shed) and rinsed. Lots of dicing and thin slicing. The cutting board was soft rubber.

After all was said and done, there were shiny dots all along the edge. It couldn't cut newspaper. I tried stropping on two stones. The first fine and reasonably hard, and it was still dull, and a lot of the shiny spots remained. I tried a BB next, and it improved a but in my estimation, I'd have to back off to 1000 grit and scrub (not just strop). In other words, the edge issues are not merely edge alignment. That said, it was sharp enough, well if you didn't know any better, so maybe stropping on a BB (or something hard/finer) would keep it in that sate. Willing to try something else, I suppose, but this seems typical for this knife.

I deburred with several leading edge strokes on every stone, so I don't think a burr/foil edge was the issue. I could feel the burr disappear (well on the first stroke anyhow), so I think the angles were correct.

 

[Benuser]

My pictures aren't great, but that's all my phone camera seems to do. It auto-focuses on things I don't want it to focus on, and I can't fiddle with settings to increase the focus depth. I did lightly etch the blade after thinning, so you can see where the edge work was done.

The knife:

View attachment 273511

Where is the fingerguard? What happened to it? Removed with a Dremel or so?

 

[noj]

Where is the fingerguard? What happened to it? Removed with a Dremel or so?

A bit of better news, I did try the (stropped) knife on some salad ingredients, and it feels serviceable, except for shiny skins (tomatoes, green peppers, etc.). If I stop looking at it, cutting paper, and just use it, it's not too bad;-)

I removed the guard with a bench grinder, but kept a bucket of water handy to keep it cool. Actually, there's enough metal there (and I went slow), that it never got too hot to handle, even where I was grinding. I started just removing enough so I could get the heel on the stone to sharpen it. But, the rough instrument I used left an ugly scar, and wasn't a feature I liked anyhow, so off it went.