Recipe Requested Savoury gel recipes

[NameAlreadyTaken]

Okay, I went to a Japanese restaurant (Yakimono in Melbourne) a while back and they had some killer savoury gels that elevated a relatively simple sauce into a novelty due to the texture of the higher viscosity and the lingering flavours on the palate. I hesitate to call them a sauce as I’m guessing that there’s no egg yolk emulsion and no taste of flour for thickening.

Here’s a couple of examples:

There’s a clear gel around the sashimi that acts as a binding agent for the herb infused oil.

The gyoza sauce is a gel that’s roughly gravy consistency that does a better job of coating and provides a silky texture to contrast the dumpling.

So my question is, what is this magic, and what online resources would you suggest I hit up to try and learn how to do this?
Is this potato starch? Agar agar? Fairy dust?
What equipment do I need to pull it off and get that silky texture reliably?
What science do I need to learn to understand what any recipe is doing?

 

[Michi]

You can make gels with agar agar or with gelatine. Both work, but the technique is different.

With agar agar, first hydrate the powder for 10 minutes, then heat to just above 90 ºC. Once at that temperature and all the solids have dissolved, remove it from the heat. If you boil it too long, it will not set.

With gelatine, you hydrate the gelatine first, but then heat it to only 55-60 ºC. Don't let it get hotter, otherwise it will not set.

You can flavour the gel with pretty much anything you like, sweet or savoury. Many European countries have traditional recipes that use savoury flavoured gels (such as "Sülze" in German, "Aspic" in French). Uses are in sausage making ("Sülzwurst", head cheeses, "Pressack") or for separate dishes in their own right. Those dishes usually have a fairly strong sour component from added vinegar or lemon juice. But, of course, you can use Ponzu sauce, soy sauce, fish sauce, or pretty much anything else that strikes your fancy.

Chicken and mandarin aspic (gel made with gelatine, chicken stock, and vinegar):





Sülzfleischwurst (gelatine from cooking some pork skin, with vegetable stock and lovage):

 

[dchang21]

what @Michi said, and if the dish calls for heat stabilized gels, you can use High Acyl Gellan Gum. japanese pickle juice in gel form is delicious..

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

Thanks @Michi and @dchang21!
I have previously only used gelatin to set sweet desserts nearly solid, and I previously had some challenges with setting sour (acidic) desserts like champagne jelly with berries, but I put that down to either my lack of technique or a dosage issue.
Thanks for the pointers, I’ll do some further research. So I’m guessing I just ease back on the dosage for the gelatin and it won’t set hard?
What about whisking / whipping? Is the goal just mixing to get the gel combined? Or aerating, to get a more silky texture?
Any suggestions for reliable brands of either agar agar or gelatin that I should be seeking out?

 

[dchang21]

i dunno about aerating, unless you want bubbles in your gel?

i would look for a tray to set the gel thin. like a takeout food cover or a very shallow silicon tray. this is a bad example but...

 

[Michi]

No aerating needed. Just mix it and warm it to the right temperature. For a soft gel, I'd start with around 30-35 g of gelatine per litre of liquid. You'll have to experiment a bit.

If you have a precision scale (they only cost about $10 on eBay or Amazon), you can set up an experiment with a few lots of 100 ml of water and add 2.5 g, 3.0 g, 3.5 g, 4.0 g, and 4.5 g gelatine, respectively. Bloom the gelatine in separate dishes first and then add the already heated water, so you can easily set up all the test batches at once. Then stick them into the fridge for half an hour to set and pick the consistency you prefer.

Note that, at room temperature, the gelatine will soften some, so check the consistency when cold and again once it has been out of the fridge for an hour or so.

 

[sumis]

Sülzfleischwurst (gelatine from cooking some pork skin, with vegetable stock and lovage):

View attachment 325525

really cool that the pork skin provides the gel in this example.

looks very close to the kind of "sylta" (= sülze in german) common in swedish traditional cooking; for nose-to-tail, or with nicer cuts.

i'm def. partial to these kinds of dishes – but prefer the 'stuff' to gel ratio to be with less gel.

the savoury gels in OP’s posts has gotten me thinking though.
i'd probably do some experiments with herb gels later today.
or something like a salsa verde (w/ capers and ancho) in a crumbly gel form, cold … hmm …

.

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

Sounds great! Looking forward to your experiences @sumis!
I’ve spent the last hour and a half trying to research gelatins available on the market….
Oh another rabbit hole…. God bless KKF!

 

[Michi]

I’ve spent the last hour and a half trying to research gelatins available on the market….

Just get 200 or 220 bloom gelatine. There is no point in getting a higher grade, the taste and texture end up being the same. You simply use a little more with the lower bloom strength.

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

No aerating needed. Just mix it and warm it to the right temperature. For a soft gel, I'd start with around 30-35 g of gelatine per litre of liquid. You'll have to experiment a bit.

If you have a precision scale (they only cost about $10 on eBay or Amazon), you can set up an experiment with a few lots of 100 ml of water and add 2.5 g, 3.0 g, 3.5 g, 4.0 g, and 4.5 g gelatine, respectively. Bloom the gelatine in separate dishes first and then add the already heated water, so you can easily set up all the test batches at once. Then stick them into the fridge for half an hour to set and pick the consistency you prefer.

Note that, at room temperature, the gelatine will soften some, so check the consistency when cold and again once it has been out of the fridge for an hour or so.

Okay so it was a wet day timetable with the miserable weather down here.
But used the opportunity to do the science experiment with gelatine with the kids.

These all set by the way, but only the 2.5gm / 100ml was wobbly at 19C.


A couple of dumb questions @Michi - if I was after a savoury gel, that could be warmed like a sauce, would I need a different agent?
I noticed when I reheated these set gelatines back to 35C they all became loose again (not as loose as water, more like full cream milk viscosity).
If I wanted a thickening agent that could handle say around 40C, what should I be doing differently?

Also - thanks for the idea, it was a great way to spend the afternoon with the kids, although they were disappointed it didn’t taste like anything

 

[Jovidah]

You can't use gelatin for hot gels since, as you already discovered, it will become liquid again at a fairly low temperature. At 40 degrees C gelatine simply isn't going to work.
This is why in such cases usually agar agar is used or other fancier stuff like gellan, xanthan, etc.
I've also seen people use blender on agar-ed stuff to smooth it out.

Also, gelatin interacts with acidic ingredients, hence why that might have given you unexpected results in the past. It's not impossible but usually you have to adjust the dosage a bit.

 

[aporigine]

Okay so it was a wet day timetable with the miserable weather down here.
But used the opportunity to do the science experiment with gelatine with the kids.

View attachment 335073
These all set by the way, but only the 2.5gm / 100ml was wobbly at 19C.


A couple of dumb questions @Michi - if I was after a savoury gel, that could be warmed like a sauce, would I need a different agent?
I noticed when I reheated these set gelatines back to 35C they all became loose again (not as loose as water, more like full cream milk viscosity).
If I wanted a thickening agent that could handle say around 40C, what should I be doing differently?

Also - thanks for the idea, it was a great way to spend the afternoon with the kids, although they were disappointed it didn’t taste like anything

Perhaps tell the kids it tastes of anticipation …

(slightly ot) also, tapioca starch and gum arabic don’t quite gel but are good at bumping up viscosity while being flavor-neutral

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

You can't use gelatin for hot gels since, as you already discovered, it will become liquid again at a fairly low temperature. At 40 degrees C gelatine simply isn't going to work.
This is why in such cases usually agar agar is used or other fancier stuff like gellan, xanthan, etc.
I've also seen people use blender on agar-ed stuff to smooth it out.

Also, gelatin interacts with acidic ingredients, hence why that might have given you unexpected results in the past. It's not impossible but usually you have to adjust the dosage a bit.

Awesome - well the good news is I wasn’t doing anything wrong.

So I’ll have to get some agar agar and play around. When you mention blending to smooth it out, does that mean it’s prone to becoming lumpy? Or just that once set it doesn’t rewarm consistently?

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

Perhaps tell the kids it tastes of anticipation …

(slightly ot) also, tapioca starch and gum arabic don’t quite gel but are good at bumping up viscosity while being flavor-neutral

Thanks! I’ll have to give them a try.
How close is adding tapioca or gum arabica like adding corn starch to thicken a sauce?

 

[aporigine]

Thanks! I’ll have to give them a try.
How close is adding tapioca or gum arabica like adding corn starch to thicken a sauce?

A few days ago , I was researching a bit of first aid for delaminating cigars, and I found this. That’s some next-level glorp! I haven’t seen cornstarch behave like this.

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

A few days ago , I was researching a bit of first aid for delaminating cigars, and I found this. That’s some next-level glorp! I haven’t seen cornstarch behave like this.

Funny you mention that - that’s precisely how I was served a Chinese broccoli stir fry in a suburban Chinese restaurant up in Sydney last month. I really should have put it to good use by bringing some delaminating cigars with me to the restaurant!

 

[Jovidah]

Awesome - well the good news is I wasn’t doing anything wrong.

So I’ll have to get some agar agar and play around. When you mention blending to smooth it out, does that mean it’s prone to becoming lumpy? Or just that once set it doesn’t rewarm consistently?

I've never made agar gels myself so I'm not 100% sure... but I see most recipes doing it. Example:
Agar works a bit differently than gelatine so it's not entirely comparable. For example the texture you get from something that's set with agar has a different mouthfeel than with gelatine... but it's also far more thermoresistent. My gut feeling is you have to blend it because your mouth won't melt agar.

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

Awesome video.
Thanks for the pointers. I’ll have to do some more experimenting!

 

[Dan-]

You guys spent all that time on beef gelatin and agar agar and forgot that fumet is made from fish bones. Fish have gelatin too. Granted, most places will take shortcuts, but still.

I think if I were a purist, I would make my gelée from the bones of the fish being served.

 

[Michi]

Xanthan gum would be a good choice for gels that you want serve warm. You need very little of it, it gels quickly without having to put things into the fridge, and it is taste neutral.

You will need to experiment to find the right quantity. A precision scale will definitely be helpful.

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

Xanthan gum would be a good choice for gels that you want serve warm. You need very little of it, it gels quickly without having to put things into the fridge, and it is taste neutral.

You will need to experiment to find the right quantity. A precision scale will definitely be helpful.

Cool! Thanks mate. Will give it a shot.