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Serious Project: Maboroshi thinning

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ModRQC

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the pro220 is very fast.

which brands of stones can you get in canada?
Easily would be any Shapton, Naniwa, Cerax/Suehiro - except the SG HR, we mostly see the regular SG around here. Consensus seems to be that the normal height glass stone is a terrible purchase because it won't last long at that kind of grits.
 

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Can only compare SP120 to SG320.
SG320 is a very nice stone offering an even result, doesn't dish too fast but is relatively expensive. SP120 is cheaper and thicker, and I have no problem in dealing with its scratch pattern — I use either the NP400 or NP600, but probably the NP800 will do as well (haven't tried IIRC).
 
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ModRQC

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Well I guess if I manage to cover SP320 with Cerax 320, I could do the same with SP220. But if the faster abrasion rate also equals faster dishing, I would readily buy another SP320 instead.

If that slower NP400 is out of my equation. It's relatively expensive, and I really need a coarse that thins at least as well as SP320, and doesn't dish any faster than SP320. SG seems to be the ideal choice. I'll try again to find a HR...
 

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it doesn't exist. the coarse stones are faster because they release more abrasive.
maybe king 300? the shapton pro 120 is also very fast.
 

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Not so sure about that fast abrasion meaning fast dishing. We would need the report of someone owing both SP320 and SP220.
 

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Okay I'm confused. I thought there was a series of thicker Shapton Glass. I thought that's what HR meant. It's not. Is there a thicker version than the 5mm SGs?
 

inferno

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only the 500 is available in double thick =10mm but its more like 12 mine was at least..
also my 220 glass was 7-8mm, not 5mm

i'd say a 220 glass will last about as long as a 220 pro. give or take.
 

ian

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To maximize the effect of each pass on this one would ideally insist a bit with putting pressure exactly at both high spots (from the other side of the blade obviously) with two fingers, rather than insisting on each high spot independently.
Looking good! This sentence makes me think your strokes must be very short, if you’re actually able to keep finger pressure right over the high spots. Things will go much faster (and the stone will wear more evenly) if each stroke is nearly the full length of the stone. Think of it less as intentionally wearing down the high spots, and more as “evening things out”. Like, when you flatten your stones, you don’t focus on the high parts, you just flatten the thing, and your flattening plate automatically makes contact with the high spots because it’s flat.

Edit: sorry, this post is not well thought out and doesn’t make sense. however, the point about “evening things out” instead of intentionally lowering high spots is a good one, I think.
 
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Benuser

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More confusion: where I earlier have reported about the SP220, it was in fact the SP120 I had been using. Have corrected the text. Sorry for that. Can't tell you anything about the SP220. Own SG320, 220, 120HR and SP120.
 

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What’s your take on dishing with the SG320 regular? Is there really a big difference between HR and HC, and where so does it make sense with Shapton saying the HC are better with Carbon?
 

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What’s your take on dishing with the SG320 regular? Is there really a big difference between HR and HC, and where so does it make sense with Shapton saying the HC are better with Carbon?
No dishing observed, some trace of a tactile feedback. Takes some time before getting evenly effective OOTB. Keep it permanently wet, which isn't easy.
Don't know by own experience the difference between HR and HC series. Have only used the HR. This is what my retailer tells about it:
Shapton Glass Stones HR vs HC
There are two different series of the Shapton Glass Stones. There’s the HC series and the HR series. The HC series is a bit softer than the HR. Because of this the HR series is better suited for harder steel types and powder steels. Obviously, the HR series sharpens a bit more aggressive than the HC series. Shapton indicates that the HC-stone can be used for carbon steel blades, but our experience is the HR series will do fine as well.

I find them a bit expensive if you're a more than occasional user.
 

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the hc is only available in 4/6/8k
they are gray.
just as hard.
polish a step or 2 above their stated grit (the white stones don't polish anything at all).
is a little slower on all steels.

both the gray and the white stones does all common steels. its mostly bs this carbon/alloyed steel.
and if you dont have them side by side no one would ever know the difference.
 

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Looking good! This sentence makes me think your strokes must be very short, if you’re actually able to keep finger pressure right over the high spots. Things will go much faster (and the stone will wear more evenly) if each stroke is nearly the full length of the stone. Think of it less as intentionally wearing down the high spots, and more as “evening things out”. Like, when you flatten your stones, you don’t focus on the high parts, you just flatten the thing, and your flattening plate automatically makes contact with the high spots because it’s flat.
I’m not sure I follow you there. Why wouldn’t I be able to keep my fingers on the spot I choose in long strokes? Because that’s what I do. Longer strokes are indeed much more effective.
 

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No dishing observed, some trace of a tactile feedback. Takes some time before getting evenly effective OOTB. Keep it permanently wet, which isn't easy.
Don't know by own experience the difference between HR and HC series. Have only used the HR. This is what my retailer tells about it:
Shapton Glass Stones HR vs HC
There are two different series of the Shapton Glass Stones. There’s the HC series and the HR series. The HC series is a bit softer than the HR. Because of this the HR series is better suited for harder steel types and powder steels. Obviously, the HR series sharpens a bit more aggressive than the HC series. Shapton indicates that the HC-stone can be used for carbon steel blades, but our experience is the HR series will do fine as well.

I find them a bit expensive if you're a more than occasional user.
I don’t know I have at least a retailer where SG pretty much follow a barely more expensive price structure on them than SPs. Less expensive than NPs by far.
 

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I don’t know I have at least a retailer where SG pretty much follow a barely more expensive price structure on them than SPs. Less expensive than NPs by far.
I meant expensive for the use you get of it. IIRC, the Pro is at least two times as thick.
 

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But it is much slower to dish than SPs though?
 

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I’m not sure I follow you there. Why wouldn’t I be able to keep my fingers on the spot I choose in long strokes? Because that’s what I do. Longer strokes are indeed much more effective.
Ah, indeed, I think I was just writing stuff without thinking. Thanks for responding.😜

The point about “evening it out” vs intentionally hitting the high spots is helpful, at least to me, especially once the blade road is getting more even. Helps prevent you from introducing further irregularities.
 

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Ah, indeed, I think I was just writing stuff without thinking. Thanks for responding.😜

The point about “evening it out” vs intentionally hitting the high spots is helpful, at least to me, especially once the blade road is getting more even. Helps prevent you from introducing further irregularities.
Indeed but that was a bit of my point but I should’ve been clearer. I went into explaining this because I think many people would follow the false logic of trying pressure on the low spot, thinking that it’s their technique that’s wrong. I meant by this to identify the high spots that create a low spot if you must « insist » but I specified too to carry the work to the whole bevel. But I was trying to go too fast publishing the post and I may have introduced the wrong idea. Fine of you to point to the evening out process foremost. Thanks for replying and helping!
 
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Benuser

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But it is much slower to dish than SPs though?
From the only grit I have both in SP and SG I can't support that conclusion. There's difference between both in that grit, not sure though it's about dishing, and not sure either it favours the SG line. Besides, I've found the SG220 to dish fast, too fast to my taste.
 

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it doesn't exist. the coarse stones are faster because they release more abrasive.
maybe king 300? the shapton pro 120 is also very fast.
I’m not asking for a unicorn coarse stone that’s fast and doesn’t dish. I’m asking if there’s something that doesn’t dish faster than SP320, cuts about as fast, but overall that one would deem superior. Not because I want to play fancy but because the SP320 is less than half its original state now and if nothing does much better than this, I’ll simply go for another one of the same. I’m all for expanding my experience with stones but I’m even more for a stone that does things fast enough without dishing fast like a Cerax 320 but leaves a finish I can easily cover with the Cerax.

Ideally a SP320 that leaves a nice finish of its own and is twice as thick would be awesome. 😜
 

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of the coarse stones i've tried they all wear fast if they remove metal fast.
the only exception is the 500 double thick glass. its relatively slow wearing yet very fast.

also you can use the 220ies with lighter pressure but then they wont be really fast imo.

maybe a coarse or medium SiC stone? i have had bad experience with a 100 grit SiC though. the stone sounds like its removing lots of material but almost nothing happens...

i feel the trick is to use high pressure but to spread the wear over the stone.
 

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While I have some of you good people around, two questions:

Could I expect the NP400 to be about as fast as SP320?

And more importantly in the immediate of things, can someone show me what the Suehiro Rika leaves for finish on a wide bevel?

I only ever used it to refine an edge.

Thanks!!
Absolutely not.

The NP400 starts like a agressive cutter, but it's smooth after a few minutes. Waaaaaay smoother.
I can hardly feel any difference between my np400 and chosera600, which is also said to have a higher finish then an other 600.

Im seriously conluding that a NP400, after a few minutes of use, feel towards an 800 or coarse 1000...

I don't like the stone. Untill recently I stopped using it as a 400, and started seeing it as a 700-900 kinda stone... Now my autistic brain can handle it (joking)...
 

ma_sha1

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Good work!

FYI, my Mab. also had a big “low spot” near the tip, I could be wrong but I think it was put there intentionally. It was on both sides symmetrically, & about inch and half long. It made the thin tip section even thinner.

I wonder if others with TF Mab can observe this?
 

ModRQC

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IDK left side of tip was pretty perfect here, first pass had it perfectly covered already. On the right side the small low spot there was a consequence of a high spot near the spine. Only the left side of the heel had a huge low spot, and all of that was probably just grinding inconsistency, none very difficult to even out.
 

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It’s sad that NPs don’t feature a real coarse stone.

Think I’ll stick with what I know works for me. Thanks all for the insights shared.
 

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Ok so I'll wrap this quick for tonight, I'm exhausted. All the young ones were here today, then I went into dinner prep, then I finished the thinning here and addressed all problems. It's awfully late, and I have to get up in four hours to go to work, problem being I'm still up.

As far as thinning is concerned this project is done. Can't be more satisfied with the essentials. Finish... is alright but not quite to my liking. Secondary concern though, this knife is in infancy, and what's important for it to grow up beautifully has been addressed.

A further post will show what my usual mild etching resulted with, as well as sharpening. Etching was done tonight, but the lighting is truly inadequate here. The following pictures were difficult to obtain, and none so beautiful. The rest will wait when I'm here during the day and can benefit from some natural light.

Where my deepest insatisfaction lies is that the low spot at the left heel isn't entirely gone. It's pretty much been evened out but finish didn't take full hold. Only real problem that I had was a broken tip fragment once again (see Moritaka). Seems to be the norm when I thin. Something to learn from, but on the other hand I'd rather carry the job thoroughly, see the tip fail, repair to a stronger one, and be at peace, than working on an insanely thin tip that threatens to fail on me while prepping. I see this as a mild problem, sure, but also a guarantee that what's left behind once repaired is a blade tough enough on the whole edge. Especially when it breaks so squarely and evenly on a very minor scale.

So here we go...

TipBroke.JPG
TipRepair.JPG

Awaiting sharpening, then I'll see if it warrants for a couple more strokes spine down. I think it won't - there's literally no edge there anymore, so putting one should do the trick.

BladeTrumpsHandlle.JPG


UseTrumpsLooks.JPG

Of course this side is why I'm a bit disappointed with final finish, although I'll sleep like a baby tonight no doubt.

Bevels.jpg

Not that it shows much or proves anything but I've grown fond of these shots. I just realized though that I inverted the left side shots: up should be down, down should be up, but who will care but me anyhow...

Sandpaper.JPG

Sandpaper is so essential to my ways of doing things. After this experience, it won't be involved with any early thinning from now on, but it sure is darn useful where maintaining finish is concerned. Here, after thinning, some pass with #800 #1000 #2000 #3000 helped to hide many imperfections left from thinning on the tsuchime finish on both sides. #3000 also insured the Cerax finish on the bevels was smoothed out and wouldn't catch in food.

F&F.jpg

And since I was there, handle was smoothed further, and bolster as well, up to mirror finish. This cannot hide the many imperfections of the handle, but boy does it feel smooth and awesome in hand.

Now for the main course:

Choils.jpg

Left to right: original, after sandpaper stage, after thinning on SP320, after completing thinning and putting the finish with Cerax 320

So let's put this final choil pic under the follow spot:

Final.JPG

That I'm hugely satisfied with!

My poor scale didn't report back any change from this final stage.
Scale.JPG


In the end, from 212/53 and 207g originally we're now @ 211/53 for 205g. With such an instrument, that means weight could be anywhere between 204g and 206g. The latter is more likely.

Be well folks!
 

ModRQC

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Yes I'll make sure to repair that tiny speck left we can see on the second picture. I used the SP320 yesterday for the bulk of the repair but it's very aggressive when getting to reform the very point, didn't like that feeling that I would possibly abrade the point as soon as I'd have recreated if not of the penultimate precision. With the Moritaka I repaired on NP800 and I was happy with the resulting point, the stone was fast enough for this application despite the higher grit but much smoother, and I think I'm better off doing the last few strokes on it this time again.

I also tested yesterday if the area was solid enough as is, reproducing rock chopping on a board, letting the knife rest on the very tip with all it's weight behind, and trying to bend it with my fingers. Very sturdy, can't even flex it applying brute force with a finger.

Yadda yadda, all I mean is don't worry too much for me, I always get there in the end. ;)
 

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“And I will continue devoting myself making blades to satisfy these users by imagining faces of each user”
– Teruyasu Fujiwara

… Fujiwara san makes his way home on a beautiful evening of September, only yearning for some rest after a busy day. As he crosses his threshold, he is suddenly hit by images that are, and are not, his own mind. He staggers a bit, finds hold to the doorjamb, and let the alien reel unfurl. These are not users faces.

What is it? …


What Stones.JPG

SharpChoil.JPG

4Fold.JPG


Okay, okay! I’ll stop now…

Well there we are, yesterday was sharpening day.

By the way, can anyone guess what was my starting stone? What was my finishing stone? ;P

Quadruple fold newspaper test went quite alright!

Luuuv the demarcation of the cladding vs. core with that choil shot!

Finish is nice enough – and required the less amount of effort – but now that we’re there, it’s not suiting this blade. It looks like mud clinging to a blade – which is exactly what it is, but somehow where I find it agreeable enough on my Moritaka and my Deep Impact (would need some working on consistency finish wise, that one, though) it’s not fitting here. I’ll try a mirror polish on it next time, and then try a Rika kasumi alike finish from that polish the time after… Then who knows… Oh yes I am keeping that blade for sure.

Handle.jpg

Just look at that handle… Yes full of faults, but I made the most of it, and it’s solid, so smooth and comfortable, the knife ergonomically is perfect, and now looks quite the part from any distance but this close. This will be our dirty little TF secret. No one needs to know…

Okay, okay!

That’s the kind of love I give to a knife that has seduced me thoroughly, is what I mean. A keeper.

Sorry for the two next, went to show the etching, and the pics looked fine on the iPhone – “duh!” ultimate sh1t phone… In the end I could only salvage parts of the shots, and blurry ones at that.

Close1.JPG
Close2.JPG


Full blade – these pics are clean enough. How do you feel about that tip repair? It looks better than new to me. BTW you can see I had no intention to respect the recurve at the heel. While I understand its purpose, in my use of medium length Gyuto if a heel is is no flat spot then it’s a waste of space. For now recurve is still there, and makes for a rather inconsistent edge bevel. Couple of sharpenings from now we should get about even, it and me. My Masahiro VC has a recurve I respected to test myself, but intend to keep – it is my go-to rock chopper and best pepper cutter as is.

Etch&Sharp.jpg



Now... TF looks pretty contemptuous about my results…

TF.JPG


Mind you, that could have to do with a close presence with my Deep Impact. Now that we’re to this comparison, I’ll admit that where the DI handle has less faults, the Mabs handle just have it bite the dust from the circles it runs around it. A 500$ knife handle, not quite, and a shame to waste so good material and perfect potential – but head to head, the Mabs handle still wins.

DI.JPG


While I was on the Mabs I just used the slurried NP800, and muddy creamed Rika, to touch up the Deep Impact and have my carrot laser out of its recent AS edge lethargy. Interesting thing, this. It still was cutting right. It still went through paper. But there wasn’t any more feeling to it. It was numbly sharp, almost feeling dull – but there those carrots still went. Today I rectified this, and TF is pissed because I didn’t buy his Denka. He’s thinking – you’d still have that crazy out of the stones edge with my AS.

Oh well… I now think that TF is mostly a sad man somehow. Proud of his technique and excellence, but bitterness has swallowed the light out of the persona, and some of that poison is leaking out into words that seem more terrible than what he really intended to say.

My final word on the Mabs is that it’s worth it’s price, but has a hard time with first impressions. Just like its maker. And I wish for TF to be at peace, if he’s not. I do love this knife.

LonesomeSmith.JPG
 

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Now with some food prep – I don’t care much for a knife that cuts paper, even quadruple fold, even always-damp-paper-from-Ryky’s planet, if it doesn’t cut food.

IMG_6426.JPG

I managed to have a bit of everything… That’s what wraps night is for – and the girlfriend’s lunch for tomorrow, and her daughter’s immediate snack.

IMG_6427.JPG

Carrots: my best carrot cutter remains with the Deep Impact, but the Mabs now is almost there – there’s a cracking from the harsh shinogi when cutting the root of any +/- 20mm tall carrot, but no real tearing to the cut. We’ll see when we’ll get 30mm + roots, but great job still. As for halving lengthwise, we’re in the DI’s ballpark. Others of my knives are to this effect, mind you, and the DI remains carrots king. Going into a paysanne from there would be awesome with the Mabs though – probably blowing the DI and any other of my knives out of the scheme. I did a couple slices to that effect and munched the results on the spot – glassy textured paysanne, explosive taste, and the cutting feel was righteously balanced between going through nothing and feeling something. This is what this thinning Mabs session shines with – detailed cuts.

IMG_6430.JPG

Then some cucumber. It takes a crap knife to feel bad with cutting these, but the texture and retained water are what differentiates good from crap, and all these cuts were on the very good side of good if I judge from sampling only one rondelle, and this leftover cucumber wasn’t even so fresh anymore to start with. Awesome food release.

IMG_6431.JPG

Then a tomato… this is what we get around these parts in the grocery for tomatoes… hard and disgustingly fibrous. Still the Mabs made the most of it yet again with silk textured cuts for the young one and easily diced the rest for the wraps – skin up or down didn’t matter.

IMG_6432.JPG

Then some lettuce – another awful batch from the grocery where it took 6 full leaves to have the equivalent of about three edible ones. Cut the bulk of haphazardly gathered dissected leaves into chiffonade as clean as if this lettuce was fresh of the garden.

IMG_6433.JPG

Then some red pepper – ill-shaped leftover once again so you’ll forgive me the cuts to the right, but the Mabs was keen in helping me getting the most out of that, and to the left, the only about righteous quarter I could get, cut skin up (added difficulty – curvy ends and flexible stance) until the very last slice where I had to save my fingers, flip it and tip slice it in half. Food release as awesome as with the cucumber rounds.

IMG_6434.JPG

Then the onion. Tip and root off felt like butter. Big deception of wedging when halving – wide main bevel suction. Awesome slicing. Just awesome. Perhaps I have better onion cutters where overall performance is concerned, but when it comes to a fine slicing, and I’m sure fine dicing too, the control and feedback I get with the Mabs is impressing. Food release still awesome. You can see by the picture that I really wanted to "cut" that second half. But no need for it, this was enough.

IMG_6436.JPG

Then bacon – that was a joke really. Just wanted shorter slices for the Mabs to do it – a quick drag tip slice went through the stack leaving two behind and no proof they ever were united if not for the circumstantial proximity. That was a 8 slices stack.

Then, my hand… went to wash the knife and there you have it, four perfectly sliced fingertips… naaaaah don’t get your hopes up I’m just fooling.

No just some patina...
IMG_6437.JPG


Be well folks!
 
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