Sharpening motion - side-to-side instead of forward-backward?

[MikeF]

What are your thoughts about sharpening knives on stones using a side-to-side motion instead of forward-and-backward? I found it easier to hold a consistent angle via the side-to-side motion since I could lock almost my entire upper body and just rotate my spine above my hips as opposed to the usual forward-and-backward motion that necessitates arm movement.

About the only examples of this side-to-side sharpening I could find were a video by Bob Cramer (around 3:40) and Dan Delavan (around 1:40). Both of them only use the sweeping motion on one side of the blade (with a more of a push-pull for the other side), but I imagine either switching hands or using the same style of grip as with push-pull technique (45* angle to the stone) just moving side-to-side instead would be an option?

So... is there a 'proper' sharpening technique that places the stone long side left-right and sharpens with a side-to-side motion, and if not, why? Just getting into sharpening right now and this way seems to give me a more consistent angle, but I dont want to learn an 'incorrect' way (especially if there is some specific reasoning why sharpening is always done in a forward-backward motion; muscle fatigue, better control, less chance at cutting yourself... ?)

 

[mengwong]

Sometimes I do angle the stone on the counter, or angle my stance so the elbow is more of a pivot point like you say.

But sometimes you want “inconsistency”:

Near the tip I have the knife lying flat down on the stone. Near the heel I have a fatter angle. Same thing when I apply the micro bevel. I make it narrower/more acute/thinner toward the tip and fatter/more obtuse/thicker near the heel.

If we could somehow consistently apply pressure with the off hand, then the windshield-wiper style you’re talking about would work. But we’ve got two shoulders for pivots, not one, so the compromise lies along the median.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

If it works for you then it works. There's guy named like Dave Blaine or something that used to post a lot of YT videos of sharpening like that. It was pretty common at one time.

Although, I'd say to be careful not to alter your geometry. It's also going to be slower.

If you bend your elbow and straighten your wrist, lock that in. Then turn your hand toward your belly button to around 30-45 degrees. Lay the knife on the stone. You should be pretty solid. I also flip hands.

Personally, I'd advocate learning the "scrub" method but again, whatever works, works.

 

[esoo]

I do a sweeping heel to tip as it's the way I can lock in my angle.

I bought a used k-tip gyuto that had been messed up by back and forth sharpening - instead of a curve to the top it was a straight line from the tip, corner then the rest of the blade.

 

[Rangen]

Try it out and see what you think. There are a lot of ways to sharpen, and you have to find what works best for you. I wouldn't worry too much about training yourself on the "wrong" technique. Experimentation is part of finding the path.

As esoo says, "works for you" may be best judged by what allows you to control the angle consistently. For some, that's sweeping. For me, it appears to be the 45 degree scrubbing technique demonstrated by Jon Broida of JKI in his videos, but keeping a loose and symmetrical grip with the off hand, not touching the blade with that hand except a forefinger along the spine, and using fingertips at the edge to do the fine adjustment of the correct angle. That turned out to work much better for me than trying to control the angle from the handle. Something entirely different from either of these may work best for you. The only way to know is to try.

 

[Delat]

Agree with the above, do whatever works best for you. The only advice I have is that once you decide to try it a particular way, stick with it for a while to build up the muscle memory which is crucial for consistency. I do sweeping motions for the last 2-3” of curve leading to the tip which helps me maintain the curve properly, and back and forth for the main flat portion of the blade.

 

[Desert Rat]

What are your thoughts about sharpening knives on stones using a side-to-side motion instead of forward-and-backward? I found it easier to hold a consistent angle via the side-to-side motion since I could lock almost my entire upper body and just rotate my spine above my hips as opposed to the usual forward-and-backward motion that necessitates arm movement.

About the only examples of this side-to-side sharpening I could find were a video by Bob Cramer (around 3:40) and Dan Delavan (around 1:40). Both of them only use the sweeping motion on one side of the blade (with a more of a push-pull for the other side), but I imagine either switching hands or using the same style of grip as with push-pull technique (45* angle to the stone) just moving side-to-side instead would be an option?

So... is there a 'proper' sharpening technique that places the stone long side left-right and sharpens with a side-to-side motion, and if not, why? Just getting into sharpening right now and this way seems to give me a more consistent angle, but I dont want to learn an 'incorrect' way (especially if there is some specific reasoning why sharpening is always done in a forward-backward motion; muscle fatigue, better control, less chance at cutting yourself... ?)

There is a difference in sharpening traditions. Where as some break the knife up into sections using a scrubbing motion, and the more western way full length strokes heel to tip with the emphasis on the edge leading stroke or even edge leading strokes only using the whole stone corner to corner, and some incorporate all of it into their sharpening.


I do think that presenting the knife to the stone at an angle is easier to get a feel for a consistent angle, there is nothing wrong with holding the knife 90 deg to the stone though, but I don't like what Dan Delavan is doing in the video letting the knife fall off the stone at the end of the stroke.

If I was to teach a beginner I would encourage them to try and switch hands because of the visual it gives them between the edge bevel and the stone, but it all works.

Here is a video demonstrating old school western style sharpening.



Another from Dan's..




Alternating edge leading strokes minimizes burr formation but it will be the hardest way for beginners to get good results. Raising a burr on one side and then flipping the knife makes holding a perfect angle less critical and scrubbing motions remove material faster and with an emphasis on the edge trailing stroke promote burr formation and the vast majority of folks are burr sharpeners.

Pretty sure Bob Kramer has his feet firmly set in a western tradition and probably started out with alternating edge leading strokes as I did, we sharpen very similarly. He flips back and forth to minimize burr formation as he goes without feeling for a burr. I don't think a beginner should emulate that until they get consistent enough in repeating their angles after lifting the knife off the stone, I wouldn't even promote that technic even though it's what I do.

There are probably pros and cons to all of it and augments could be made either way, no real right or wrong.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

I did the "old school" sweeping style of sharpening for decades. I preferred the stone perpendicular to my belly rather than going side to side. It wasn't until I got serious about kitchen cutlery that I started exploring the scrubbing motion. At the time I just used my strong hand but it still felt very foreign. But, after a while I was pretty good and before long I realized that switching hands would probably work better.

That felt really strange for a good while and I'd switch back to strong hand only. Eventually it all came together but it was probably something like a four year transition period.

 

[mpier]

I personally would learn and practice has many different techniques as you can. Japanese knives for example are fairly easy to sharpen so one technique may work fine for you although I use a couple of different ones depending on the steel and what I generally use that knife for most of the time. I also sharpen a lot of hunting and pocket knives which are not quite as easy and some are just a pain in the you no what and require different techniques from what I would use for Japanese style knives.This is why I have also started switching hands more often it feels awkward at first or I should say for awhile but it definitely helps me for these types of knives. Has most have stated there is no wrong way has long has the end result is good and your not spending to much time to get there.

 

[cotedupy]

As others have said - many ways to skin a cat, and if something works for you then it's not wrong. Every person here will do things slightly differently from each other. I personally find my best results come from using a combination of motions depending on what I'm doing. My technique is completely different at the beginning of sharpening a knife compared to the end.

---

Something significant to note though if playing around with different motions in the way you're asking about...

When you use forward and backward motions to sharpen a knife with a curve* - you have to raise the angle you're holding the knife at in order to sharpen the tip at the correct edge angle.

But if doing the kind of sweeping side-to-side motion you describe - you don't. Because you're changing the orientation of the knife to the stone instead. If you raised your elbow when sharpening in this manner then the tip of the knife would have a higher edge angle than the rest of it.

That make sense? This reasons for kind of thing can be a bit hard to visualise sometimes, but I assure you the above is true, and it's quite an important thing to know.



* i.e. most kitchen knives, with the exception of nakiri, usuba, caidao, &c.

 

[mpier]

I was going to add that, for example if you’re going to sharpen a classic butcher knife with it’s aggressive round tip I think you would struggle getting and holding the correct angle with that technique, I’m not saying it can’t be done but it may be awkward at best

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Yeah, I often switch up depending on the knife. Pocket and smaller, belly-heavy outdoor knives I'll usually go back to sweeping.

 

[cotedupy]

I was going to add that, for example if you’re going to sharpen a classic butcher knife with it’s aggressive round tip I think you would struggle getting and holding the correct angle with that technique, I’m not saying it can’t be done but it may be awkward at best

This is an interesting observation. I don't have a massive amount of experience here, but I've generally found the opposite to be true, particularly in extreme examples.

The top knife here is a CCK 'Rhino', and it's almost impossible to sharpen properly by raising your elbow. The only way I've been able to sharpen that curve particularly well is with sweeping motions, pretty much swivelling my whole body.

(I do realise this is probably just my own lack of technique!)

 

[mpier]

This is an interesting observation. I don't have a massive amount of experience here, but I've generally found the opposite to be true, particularly in extreme examples.

The top knife here is a CCK 'Rhino', and it's almost impossible to sharpen well by raising your elbow. The only way I've been able to sharpen that curve particularly well is with sweeping motions, pretty much swivelling my whole body.

View attachment 232189


(I do realise this is probably just my own lack of technique!)

Ya I can definitely see how that knife may use that technique. My butcher knife is a 270mm so I guess what I was referring to is that using that side ways motion would be more difficult than say going up the stone or perpendicular if that make sense.

 

[cotedupy]

Ya I can definitely see how that knife may use that technique. My butcher knife is a 270mm so I guess what I was referring to is that using that side ways motion would be more difficult than say going up the stone or perpendicular if that make sense.

Yeah, fair point. The Rhino is a bit of an odd / atypical example tbh.

What you say raises another significant consideration in all this, which @HumbleHomeCook also hinted at above: Sideways sweeps are probably not an ideal way to sharpen larger knives that have a significant flat-ish section to the profile. Because you'd almost certainly get different edge angles along the straight part, and probably over time end up sharpening a belly into it too.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Yeah, fair point. The Rhino is a bit of an odd / atypical example tbh.

What you say raises another significant consideration in all this, which @HumbleHomeCook also hinted at above: Sideways sweeps are probably not an ideal way to sharpen larger knives that have a significant flat-ish section to the edge profile. Because you'd almost certainly get different edge angles along the straight part, and probably over time end up sharpening a belly into it too.

Yeah, I've always wondered about adding curve tot he blade by going side to side.

 

[cotedupy]

Yeah, I've always wondered about adding curve tot he blade by going side to side.

Certainly very easy to do. I've done it to a nakiri before I'd really thought about / realised all this. So now the motions I use for nakiri and caidao are somewhat different to the way I sharpen most other knives.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Certainly very easy to do. I've done it to a nakiri before I'd really thought about / realised all this. So now the motions I use for nakiri and caidao are somewhat different to the way I sharpen most other knives.

What do you think of this technique? I've been crudely playing with it on my Wat Pro nakiri.

 

[mpier]

I’ve always ran my cleavers up the stone, for me it’s just seams easier to keep that natural arch with the full distance of the stone. Now that’s just me, I’ve watched so many videos probably like you and this way seams to work best for me.

 

[cotedupy]

What do you think of this technique? I've been crudely playing with it on my Wat Pro nakiri.

The theory is certainly sound there, and I'm sure works well when you've got the hang of it, but my hunch would be that it might be overcomplicating the practicality. The height of cleavers can make angle control more tricky, but not to the extent (imo) that one needs to start doing weird stuff to compensate.

I suspect the benefits of what @mpier says here probably outweigh the benefits of the tiny-little-strokes-method.

just seams easier to keep that natural arch with the full distance of the stone.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

The theory is certainly sound there, and I'm sure works well when you've got the hang of it, but my hunch would be that it might be overcomplicating the practicality. The height of cleavers can make angle control more tricky, but not to the extent (imo) that one needs to start doing weird stuff to compensate.

I suspect the benefits of what @mpier says here probably outweigh the benefits of the tiny-little-strokes-method.

Yeah it felt real weird to me and awkward.

 

[MikeF]

Well, good to know that the side-to-side movement isnt a terrible 'dont ever do that' technique. Guess its just that the "Japanese Traditional" sharpening method is more popular as the vast majority of guides/tutorials I found featured the push/pull method while (as @Desert Rat mentioned) one of the few sweeping motion videos I found was running the tip off the stone which even to my inexperienced eyes just seems like the perfect way of breaking/rounding the tip.

Mustered up the courage to finally sharpen the Akifusa AS knives instead of the Dexter-Russell stainless to some good results - started with a 1000, sharpened until I felt the bur (both sides), did some stropping motions to remove it, tested on paper, went to 5000, did both sides (though couldnt exactly feel the bur), some more stopping motions, then actual stropping on leather. Finished with all knives cutting newspaper without issue and shaving hair on my arm (the bald spot grows). Took 3 hours to sharpen up 4 knives, and was quite surprised to find it took so long - guess its true how similar to meditation the process is; no extra thoughts, just you, the stone, the knife, and a bunch of lost time.
Only thing I wasnt satisfied with was the tips. They are mostly sharp, but not as good as the rest of the blade. Any recommendations for how to handle them (gyuto with its pointy tip and nakiri with the rounded tip)?

So far I seem to be able to hold a consistent angle when the edge is towards me with the traditional push/pull motions, while edge away seems to be more consistent with a side-to-side wiping variation. The wiping motion was much more taxing on my muscles than the push/pull, so might just play around with a few other motions and see what works.

 

[blokey]

This is an interesting observation. I don't have a massive amount of experience here, but I've generally found the opposite to be true, particularly in extreme examples.

The top knife here is a CCK 'Rhino', and it's almost impossible to sharpen properly by raising your elbow. The only way I've been able to sharpen that curve particularly well is with sweeping motions, pretty much swivelling my whole body.

View attachment 232189


(I do realise this is probably just my own lack of technique!)

Another way of sharpening those big boys is holding the stone in hand and moving them instead of the knife.

 

[RDalman]

I sharpen like that. Had a unlisted video I uploaded a while ago where it shows:

 

[cotedupy]

Another way of sharpening those big boys is holding the stone in hand and moving them instead of the knife.

Mmm yep, I did try that for it, I'm just not very good at it. Perhaps if I ever get any good at axe sharpening I might give it another go on the Rhino.

 

[MikeF]

I sharpen like that. Had a unlisted video I uploaded a while ago where it shows:

Amazing - that is literally the exact method I ended up with - even the idea of placing the stone at a 45* angle so you can more easily switch between the push/pull movement for when the edge is towards you and side-to-side movement for when the edge is away from you. The only differences being that I try to do longer strokes during the side-to-side motion instead of short ones as (I believe) that keeps the angle more consistent. Oh, and the fact that I do everything mirrored seeing as how Im a leftie

 

[Jville]

“Back and forth, back and forth”

 

[Heckel7302]

“Back and forth, back and forth”

You got the accent wrong. It's "back and fowse, back and fowse, just erase the marks, back and fowse, back and fowse"

 

[RDalman]

“Back and forth, back and forth”

4ever
))<>((

 

[Jovidah]

I thought I was the only one doing that stone-rotating too. Guess I'm in good company when knäckebröd-speaking knifemakers are doing it too.