Sharpening rants

[mikaelsan]

Hello, I had this idea for a thread, let's see if there are any interest - we are not trying to solve anything here, just getting stuff off our chests, entertaining with stories and hopefully being relatable.

I am on a journey to spend quality time with all my knives a week with each to rebuild lost relationships awareness on tweaking and such. I have had a few mono carbon projects in this regard and man there is something hopeless about thinning mono carbon, not the k sab that was the easiest fix I have done in a while but the other harder knives. I had one which was a little thick and was overground a little. I got tired of the overgrind finally took out the diamond stone and bread knifed til the overgrind was done, purposely only on one side and oh man I think I am maybe 3 hours into the thinning nothing I own really cuts into the knife in a significant way, I tried a 220 stone, hardware store stone, even a small conditioning stone at about 100 grit everything just feels smooth and like it cuts super slow. I am finally at the point of just normal obvious wedging, so I'm guessing I'm halfway there. It's demoralising without power tools.

Anyway if you want share your rants good or bad always think it's fun to hear what people are on about in there journey - amateurs pros inexperienced or skilled polishing sharpening, thinning tip repairs and so on

 

[pavhav]

I have felt your pain, and have occasionally resorted to clamping my 8x24" Makita belt sander upside down for just such stubborn offenders. An 80 grit belt, quick, but careful passes interspersed by dips into ice-water do good work when you know doing it by hand would prove too frustrating. But, I suppose we have to learn that the hard way at least once.

 

[mikaelsan]

Oh yeah, and I do know the obvious answer is beltgrinder but I haven't wanted to pull that out since I moved into apartment complex, so somethings just takes about 10x the time if could have. Maybe silly but between the wife, kid and the neighbours it just haven't made sense to me here neither inside or outside in the common garden

 

[stringer]

Oh yeah, and I do know the obvious answer is beltgrinder but I haven't wanted to pull that out since I moved into apartment complex, so somethings just takes about 10x the time if could have. Maybe silly but between the wife, kid and the neighbours it just haven't made sense to me here neither inside or outside in the common garden

I tried to use a 1x30 in an apartment during the pandemic. I don't recommend it!

 

[M1k3]

Shapton Pro 120 is frustrating, except for thinning stainless cladding. Then it just works and keeps on working.

Power tools are lovely, if you have the space for it.

Low grit diamond stones (Venev 100 ) are an apartment dwelling knife tinkerers best friend.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Sharpening rants?

So my neighbor brought over the Wusthof I gave her and that Faberware knife...

 

[aporigine]

Sharpening rants?

So my neighbor brought over the Wusthof I gave her and that Faberware knife...

(sound of 3/4hp motor spooling up)

 

[Rangen]

I too find significant thinning really frustrating. The progress is so slow. It’s so boring compared to sharpening. And somehow every stone I try works only OK, nothing clicks and seems like the perfect thinning solution. I’ve taken to rotating through several stones on a thinning project, just to combat boredom. At least they feel different.

Power tools — not for me. I use power tools for some things, of course. But not for blades. I want to feel what’s going on. I want to build my skills for how everything should feel. You could make the case that building skills for using power tools would be valuable, but I just can’t bring myself to care.

At least it’s not polishing. I’ve dabbled, but I don’t think I was built to tolerate doing three hours of painstaking hand work that accomplishes only exposing a scratch that tells me I have to start over at the previous step.

 

[deltaplex]

I too find significant thinning really frustrating. The progress is so slow. It’s so boring compared to sharpening. And somehow every stone I try works only OK, nothing clicks and seems like the perfect thinning solution. I’ve taken to rotating through several stones on a thinning project, just to combat boredom. At least they feel different.

Power tools — not for me. I use power tools for some things, of course. But not for blades. I want to feel what’s going on. I want to build my skills for how everything should feel. You could make the case that building skills for using power tools would be valuable, but I just can’t bring myself to care.

At least it’s not polishing. I’ve dabbled, but I don’t think I was built to tolerate doing three hours of painstaking hand work that accomplishes only exposing a scratch that tells me I have to start over at the previous step.

I was just thinking (and talking) about almost this exact thing. I had been stuck in a loop with knives that needed significant thinning and can't or don't want to use powered tools for it: Progress is too slow -> mind and body fatigue -> fatigue causes mistakes -> mistakes cause frustration -> stop and go work on something else -> repeat. Once you find the tool or technique for sufficiently fast progress, there's less fatigue, less mistakes, and less frustration. This means significantly more and better quality progress being made, at least for me. The name of the game for low grits is not having things clog up. The abrasive will cut all day, as long as it's not blocked from contact by removed material.

 

[panda]

every time I gouge a stone while sharpening I cuss in 5 different languages. just happened again this morning while doing a touch-up on soft takashima.

 

[1315]

"...Why was my sharpening better 6 months ago than it is now? I mean, I bought 4 more new stones and everything!"

 

[aporigine]

every time I gouge a stone while sharpening I cuss in 5 different languages. just happened again this morning while doing a touch-up on soft takashima.

That I’d like to hear!

 

[Absolute Buffoon]

Mine from a couple nights ago when sharpening a Shindo desperately in need of a good sharpening:

"Seriously what the ****, I did so poorly I somehow made it DULLER!"

I mean, I'm not good at sharpening, but even my very first sharpening day 1 didn't make it worse. That was a new low.

We fixed that the next day though.

 

[aporigine]

Mine from a couple nights ago when sharpening a Shindo desperately in need of a good sharpening:

"Seriously what the ****, I did so poorly I somehow made it DULLER!"

I mean, I'm not good at sharpening, but even my very first sharpening day 1 didn't make it worse. That was a new low.

We fixed that the next day though.

I routinely have days when the Cosmos lets me know that I should have kept the stones dry.

 

[mikaelsan]

Mine from a couple nights ago when sharpening a Shindo desperately in need of a good sharpening:

"Seriously what the ****, I did so poorly I somehow made it DULLER!"

I mean, I'm not good at sharpening, but even my very first sharpening day 1 didn't make it worse. That was a new low.

We fixed that the next day though.

dont know if it was factory edge, but mine sharp as it were, was a little bit fatigued from grinding i guess. Took an extra try with a rough stone to get it where i wanted it to be.

 

[Absolute Buffoon]

dont know if it was factory edge, but mine sharp as it were, was a little bit fatigued from grinding i guess. Took an extra try with a rough stone to get it where i wanted it to be.

Mine's a little past factory, but I noticed it took about 2-3 sharpenings on a 1k to really get nice and sharp, so it probably also suffered the same effect you mention.

 

[deltaplex]

Mine's a little past factory, but I noticed it took about 2-3 sharpenings on a 1k to really get nice and sharp, so it probably also suffered the same effect you mention.

I had to increase a good amount from my normal sharpening angle because of how TBE these are ground. Just a few, very light, edge leading passes on the touch up stone and it was again going through produce with zero hesitation. I'd imagine if you set it at an angle like you're used to doing, that you ended up resetting the edge bevel to a more acute angle than it arrived with.

 

[Absolute Buffoon]

I had to increase a good amount from my normal sharpening angle because of how TBE these are ground. Just a few, very light, edge leading passes on the touch up stone and it was again going through produce with zero hesitation. I'd imagine if you set it at an angle like you're used to doing, that you ended up resetting the edge bevel to a more acute angle than it arrived with.

I'm honestly pretty sure mine arrived without a secondary bevel, so I kinda ended up setting one myself. Maybe I was wrong and it was some 20°+. It's plausible considering it's thin enough BTE for an angle like that to be borderline invisible but it just doesn't feel like something I've ever seen anywhere else. Either way, I basically ended up building the microbevel from scratch and probably didn't do a good job.

 

[mikaelsan]

I absolutely agree and this is not meant as an attack on what you say but more generally for me. - i also don't think that's problematic if he sharpens regular it will retain sufficient strength at the edge. I don't buy much into the whole "makers sharpening by design" and following that as a guide. There is a reason I thin and reshapen most my new knives.

Not saying the makers don't know what they are doing and there are not a reason behind it. Take the tojiro dp as a more contrasted example, they sell their knives to a wide variety of customers many first time users of hard japanese knives some sharpen, some don't some knives are sharpened often some rarely and some abused more then others. There a thick behind the edge but thinner then the average euro 0.4 mm makes sense and the cost time effective sharpening wheel edge makes sense. I actually enjoy my 240 in use and sharpening is just fine too after thinning, though a little handle heavy.

 

[deltaplex]

I'm honestly pretty sure mine arrived without a secondary bevel, so I kinda ended up setting one myself. Maybe I was wrong and it was some 20°+. It's plausible considering it's thin enough BTE for an angle like that to be borderline invisible but it just doesn't feel like something I've ever seen anywhere else. Either way, I basically ended up building the microbevel from scratch and probably didn't do a good job.

At least in my experience, when the knife has a nail flexing edge (and shindos are ground really thin) I need to be in the 30-40 DPS range and using only as much pressure as it takes to keep the apex on the stone to touch up. Once that stops producing the desired edge, I use a more acute angle: rinse, repeat. Once the angle gets relatively close to where less thin knives are at, I re-zero the edge and start back up in that 30+ DPS range again.

 

[deltaplex]

I absolutely agree and this is not meant as an attack on what you say but more generally for me. - i also don't think that's problematic if he sharpens regular it will retain sufficient strength at the edge. I don't buy much into the whole "makers sharpening by design" and following that as a guide. There is a reason I thin and reshapen most my new knives.

Not saying the makers don't know what they are doing and there are not a reason behind it. Take the tojiro dp as a more contrasted example, they sell their knives to a wide variety of customers many first time users of hard japanese knives some sharpen, some don't some knives are sharpened often some rarely and some abused more then others. There a thick behind the edge but thinner then the average euro 0.4 mm makes sense and the cost time effective sharpening wheel edge makes sense. I actually enjoy my 240 in use and sharpening is just fine too after thinning, though a little handle heavy.

Right, you can set it at 8-12* DPS (or whatever works for you) and have a perfectly excellent cutter. You're just removing more material than you "need" to, and you're not taking very much advantage of what a knife ground down to <0.1mm @ 1mm above the cutting edge can do that thicker behind the edge knives can't.

 

[Absolute Buffoon]

At least in my experience, when the knife has a nail flexing edge (and shindos are ground really thin) I need to be in the 30-40 DPS range and using only as much pressure as it takes to keep the apex on the stone to touch up. Once that stops producing the desired edge, I use a more acute angle: rinse, repeat. Once the angle gets relatively close to where less thin knives are at, I re-zero the edge and start back up in that 30+ DPS range again.

Huh, that's an interesting way to do it. I'll have to try that. Seems especially low risk considering I can't shake the feeling my mediocre sharpener skills are running through a decent amount of steel trying to set the current angle properly and Shindo doesn't exactly have too much steel it can lose.

Also love how we co-opted the rant thread to talk shop. It tracks though because I can usually be found co-opting the shop talk threads to rant. Perfect balance, really.

 

[Absolute Buffoon]

Right, you can set it at 8-12* DPS (or whatever works for you) and have a perfectly excellent cutter. You're just removing more material than you "need" to, and you're not taking very much advantage of what a knife ground down to <0.1mm @ 1mm above the cutting edge can do that thicker behind the edge knives can't.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is where I'm at. Holding at 8-12° at 62 HRC definitely needs a very consistent apex and I'm suspecting I'm having problems because I can't get it consistent enough to hold. The excess steel removal tracks with how I'm feeling too. I've been attacking deburring lately so while I don't feel like I'm super good at it, I also don't think I'm getting a wire edge terrible enough to explain the retention problems.

 

[deltaplex]

Huh, that's an interesting way to do it. I'll have to try that. Seems especially low risk considering I can't shake the feeling my mediocre sharpener skills are running through a decent amount of steel trying to set the current angle properly and Shindo doesn't exactly have too much steel it can lose.

Also love how we co-opted the rant thread to talk shop. It tracks though because I can usually be found co-opting the shop talk threads to rant. Perfect balance, really.

I think you'll be surprised with how little you need to do to bring it back: constant angle, less than 5 or so whisper light passes per side.

 

[aporigine]

Huh, that's an interesting way to do it. I'll have to try that. Seems especially low risk considering I can't shake the feeling my mediocre sharpener skills are running through a decent amount of steel trying to set the current angle properly and Shindo doesn't exactly have too much steel it can lose.

Also love how we co-opted the rant thread to talk shop. It tracks though because I can usually be found co-opting the shop talk threads to rant. Perfect balance, really.

to the second paragraph: indeed.

I have enjoyed reading this discussion, and plan to implement some of the suggestions above. I find them counterintuitive — which often is a great place to learn something significant.

 

[mikaelsan]

Somewhere north of 12 hours into current thinning project. Knife just drew blood, again, good thing you can just pinch your fingertips together and not make a drama out of it just remember to somewhat clean of the mud and the metal swarf first, or just keep going i guess.

I am loosing track of time, dont know if i am coming up on two or three weeks of working on it. Putting test edges on it is painful, its self made o2 knives, and i always wondered how my ht came out, well now i know - hard and resistant to sharpening. I am tempted to throw it in the oven again (after 6 years) and take the hrc down to approx 60-61 hrc, i was a bit greedy when i tempered it to begin with. But getting past the roughly 12 hours mark have made me somewhat stubbon - many carrots have been sacrificed for test cutting, its getting so much closer, but it stil feels like there is a long way. I want to finish before i do anything drastic. Might do a cut video demo at some point soon just to pat myself on the shoulder and have a reference point moving forward.

If you are at your own project, and have also passed to point of no return - Cheers to you, keep going you will get there eventually raising the angle now will only leave you with a knife your not happy with how cuts in the end

 

[Dull_Apex]

I decided to do some heavier thinning in some spare time but my grinding stone is a combo oilstone. This meant trudging inside to the laundry sink after each grit on on each knife to degrease and clean off the previous grit.

When I got to waterstone-level grits I just had to dunk and swirl a bit to make them ready to go.

Maybe oilstones aren't for me.

 

[stringer]

I decided to do some heavier thinning in some spare time but my grinding stone is a combo oilstone. This meant trudging inside to the laundry sink after each grit on on each knife to degrease and clean off the previous grit.

When I got to waterstone-level grits I just had to dunk and swirl a bit to make them ready to go.

Maybe oilstones aren't for me.

Mixing oil and water strategies isn't very efficient.

I usually do oil only or water only progressions to minimize these frustrations.

Crystolon Coarse to India Medium to Fine Washita

Just wiping down with a paper towel in between is sufficient to minimize grit contamination.

Or a water stone progression might be:

Shapton Glass 120 to Shapton Glass 500 to Shapton Glass 2000

Or if I am really lazy (most of the time) I just do one stone progressions. Usually either a coticule, a fast and fine washita or a Naniwa Diamond 600.

 

[HumbleHomeCook]

Yep. Do all your oil work separately from water work. If you're not happy with what you have when you move to water, then start the process over and isolate everything again.

I don't even store my oil stones with my water stones.

 

[jacobwilder5]

I sharpened 30+ knives over the weekend for neighbors and friends and just needed a place to vent how much I f****'n HATE HexClad knives and how much I LOVE SG500.