Sharpening Shigefusa Gyuto

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y32dsm

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I got a new and my first Shigefusa 240 kasumi gyuto. When I first received the knife, and it wouldn't cut anything, very dull. Therefore, I took it to #8000 stone and was trying to give a sharp edge. However, I couldn't get a stupidly sharp edge that I get from all others. I usually put a new knife all the way to the finest stone to see how sharp it can be. I understand that,Shiggy is low convexed edge and thick behind the edge. I only could get like #4000 grit sharpness. I personally felt Shiggy's blade is not as sharp as Heiji although they use same steel, rather "elastic? or gummy?" . I cant describe how I feel, but Heiji is rather brittle, glass, hige hardness, and insanely sharp. I DO NOT HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE with Shigefusa. Please tell me what i am doing wrong. Thank you in advence.
 
Any knife that is not sharp enough to "cut anything" needs to have bevels established with a coarse stone that meet at an apex before you can do any polishing. Since your new Shigefusa lacked a bevel, using an 8000 grit stone wasn't going to make it any sharper, it was only going to polish a dull edge. (Well, actually if you worked at it long enough you could probably establish bevels with an 8000 grit stone after many hours.)

So grab your 400 grit stone and put an edge on your Shig.
 
Mr. Tiger is probably right on this one though on a new knife I might be chicken to start at anything below 1000... get your marker out so you can see what you are accomplishing. Of the 1.5 dozen shigs I have owned, they have always come new very sharp, sometimes too sharp; i.e., so sharp that you are likely to lose the edge very quickly. You don't seem to be a beginner, so remove some steel at a lower grit and see what happens.
 
Is it conceivable that a new Shig would ship without the correct geometry? I mean we all know some knives don't ship with the final edge in place, but surely no decent new knife needs low grit work out of the box!
 
A lot of Japanese knives are shipped unsharpened, as the end-user, or, for him, the retailer, is supposed to put the final edge on them.
Better than a poor edge, or one you will change anyway. Any user of these knives is supposed to sharpen his own knives.
 
Benuser said:
A lot of Japanese knives are shipped unsharpened, as the end-user, or, for him, the retailer, is supposed to put the final edge on them.
Better than a poor edge, or one you will change anyway. Any user of these knives is supposed to sharpen his own knives.
Click to expand...

Well, as I said above, we all know what you just said. But I certainly didn't appreciate - and am surprised to learn - that 'unsharpened' could mean requiring the user to start on a low grit stone. I thought we might be talking about a 2K or upward 'touch up'.

Of my six bought-new J-knives, not one has needed anything like a low grit stone for quite some time.

Given the stories we hear about Shig knives I am even more surprised. Isn't "no knife leaves the shop until it is razor sharp" one of the main stories?
 
..and Shigefusa uses JNS6000 and then a godlike Ohira Suita ..
 
Devon_Steven said:
Well, as I said above, we all know what you just said. But I certainly didn't appreciate - and am surprised to learn - that 'unsharpened' could mean requiring the user to start on a low grit stone. I thought we might be talking about a 2K or upward 'touch up'.

Of my six bought-new J-knives, not one has needed anything like a low grit stone for quite some time.

Given the stories we hear about Shig knives I am even more surprised. Isn't "no knife leaves the shop until it is razor sharp" one of the main stories?
Click to expand...

Some come indeed with some kind of an edge -- for export purposes, just to ease your own sharpening. And not for any actual use on the board.
 
Devon_Steven said:
Is it conceivable that a new Shig would ship without the correct geometry? I mean we all know some knives don't ship with the final edge in place, but surely no decent new knife needs low grit work out of the box!
Click to expand...

Correct geometry is a function of grind; edge bevels are a function of sharpening.

I find that when setting a bevel on a really dull knife, a coarse stone works best for me. It takes a lot fewer passes to raise a burr, and the fewer passes you make, the easier it it to get a clean, even bevel.
 
had this kind of fun on my Ikeda Santoku and Hinoura Sujihiki too.. and i was happy about it ;)
A lot of "meat" on the knife so i can make it like i like.. but its unexpeted if you awaited a atomcutter ;)
 
Yeah, i've purchased a handful of Shigs new and all came with extremely sharp edges, this is weird. Curious the source?
 
FWIW I just got a new shig from a smaller Japanese retailer and tested it against my watanabe. Both Nakkiri 180mm with less than 2 grams of weight difference.

The shig was much duller out of the box. Now, granted - the handle "feels" better on the shig but for ease of cutting the watanabe wins hands down.

EEEK. It seems like I may have to sharpen my Japanese knives sooner than expected.
 
TheCaptain said:
FWIW I just got a new shig from a smaller Japanese retailer and tested it against my watanabe. Both Nakkiri 180mm with less than 2 grams of weight difference.

The shig was much duller out of the box. Now, granted - the handle "feels" better on the shig but for ease of cutting the watanabe wins hands down.

EEEK. It seems like I may have to sharpen my Japanese knives sooner than expected.
Click to expand...

The Wat will beat the Shig for cutting due to the geometry more than edge sharpness...
 
I am floored that it wouldn't come with a finished grind. All three shig's and my DT have been the sharpest knives I have ever received NIB. My Kato and several others needed light touch up to get to proper sharpness.
 
I had a 270 Shig come new that did not cut like I expected it to. I was not ready for the full monty so it went off to visit Jon and came back tuned up.

Cap, a couple stropping stokes on a 6Kish stone will help keep the wowser edge.
 
chinacats said:
The Wat will beat the Shig for cutting due to the geometry more than edge sharpness...
Click to expand...

That makes sense. Just trying to figure out why Shigs get more love here than Watanabe. Newer japanese knife user here testing different blades to se what I like.

Fwiw DH who worked in a professional kitchen also prefers the Wat.

Any feedback is appreciated!
 
daveb said:
I had a 270 Shig come new that did not cut like I expected it to. I was not ready for the full monty so it went off to visit Jon and came back tuned up.

Cap, a couple stropping stokes on a 6Kish stone will help keep the wowser edge.
Click to expand...

I will be playing with my jns stones and khao men with my knives this weekend.

Wish me luck!
 
Seth said:
Mr. Tiger is probably right on this one though on a new knife I might be chicken to start at anything below 1000... get your marker out so you can see what you are accomplishing. Of the 1.5 dozen shigs I have owned, they have always come new very sharp, sometimes too sharp; i.e., so sharp that you are likely to lose the edge very quickly. You don't seem to be a beginner, so remove some steel at a lower grit and see what happens.
Click to expand...
Yes, I guess I am going to set the bevel.

Benuser said:
A lot of Japanese knives are shipped unsharpened, as the end-user, or, for him, the retailer, is supposed to put the final edge on them.
Better than a poor edge, or one you will change anyway. Any user of these knives is supposed to sharpen his own knives.
Click to expand...
Just like you said, I posted if Shiggy was honbazuke on show your newest knife.

chinacats said:
Yeah, i've purchased a handful of Shigs new and all came with extremely sharp edges, this is weird. Curious the source?
Click to expand...
From JNS I sent Maxim the message if Shiggies come with sharp edges. I am also just curious about this, but I dont mind setting the new bevel.
 
Do you think I have to thin my Shiggy behind the edge since it is thick behind the edge. I have read some people wanted to thin their Shiggy because of the same reason. The some who did also said they could squeeze more out from thinning jobs. So far, I just cut papers with mine.

I also personlly feel that my Shiggy shares lots common with Mizuno blue 2 gyuto. Just saying.
 
From So Yamashita on Shigefusa shipped edges being ornamental and needing a microbevel:

"You MUST put on the second bevel, it is recommend by Shigefusa too, the edge as is is only ornamental, the edge angle is way too keen for practical use. I put 90 deg very very fine second bevel, i.e. 45 deg from both sides, this will make the edge last far longer, yet will not spoil the sharp feel basically at all, since it’s kept very fine, less than a hair width."
 
Thank you for the comment. I usually put micro when one is too this behind. several light strokes will do.:thumbsup:
 
Badgertooth said:
From So Yamashita on Shigefusa shipped edges being ornamental and needing a microbevel:

"You MUST put on the second bevel, it is recommend by Shigefusa too, the edge as is is only ornamental, the edge angle is way too keen for practical use. I put 90 deg very very fine second bevel, i.e. 45 deg from both sides, this will make the edge last far longer, yet will not spoil the sharp feel basically at all, since it’s kept very fine, less than a hair width."
Click to expand...

In my case, it is opposite. Very dull! lol
 
I didn't in fact microbevel, I opened it up completely on choseras, and it was day and night. The Swedish steel, I think is very low alloy and capable of great refinemement. When you get it on the right stones which I found to be hard synthetics to establish a fresh crisp apex and stone medium to hard jnats, you can get a remarkable edge
 
Benuser said:
You better take your coarsest stone when any new knife arrives...
Click to expand...

That's certainly not been my experience with new knives:

1 x Itinomonn gyuto (from JNS, ready for use);
1 x Toyama deba (from JNS, ready for use);
1 x Watanabe (mukimono, standard series, from Watanabe, ready to use);
1 x Watanabe (ko deba, standard series, from Watanabe, ready to use);
1 x Tanaka gyuto (from Metal Master, ready to use); and
1 x Tanaka petty(from Metal Master, ready to use).

All of these have been ready to use on the board. I have subsequently modified the bevels on all of these as they have been used and re-sharpended, but I have not needed anything other than a 6K touch-up (or nothing at all) out of the box.

I have bought one other knife, a Masakage honesuki from the BST here. It still had its factory edge (symmetrical grind, 50:50 edge) which featured quite a high angle on each side (and which I've subsequently lowered) but the cutting edge was still very sharp and its performance as a honesuki was still extremely effective.

In other words, the knowledge that knives can ship without the 'final edge' in place is well-understood, but based on my experience, I did not imagine that any low grit work would ever be required.

Even more surprised with a Shigefusa, more so again after reading Badgertooth's comments about the super-fine 'ornamental' edge.
 
Pretty new to Shigefusas so please take this comment with a pinch of salt... the two I got were sharp OOTB. Stropping made them positively sing. They're too new and in any case, I'm too green to put them on stones just yet. I imagine it'll be a while before they see anything lower than a 3k grit.
 
y32dsm said:
Do you think I have to thin my Shiggy behind the edge since it is thick behind the edge. I have read some people wanted to thin their Shiggy because of the same reason. The some who did also said they could squeeze more out from thinning jobs. So far, I just cut papers with mine.

I also personlly feel that my Shiggy shares lots common with Mizuno blue 2 gyuto. Just saying.
Click to expand...

Fwiw, the double bevelled shigs ive had were wedge monsters and couldve probably used some thinning ootb imo.
 
Badgertooth said:
I didn't in fact microbevel, I opened it up completely on choseras, and it was day and night. The Swedish steel, I think is very low alloy and capable of great refinemement. When you get it on the right stones which I found to be hard synthetics to establish a fresh crisp apex and stone medium to hard jnats, you can get a remarkable edge
Click to expand...

Has been my experience too. I set the bevel with JKI 6K diamond stone, then finish on Ohira w/nagura (medium) and Oduku w/400 Atoma slurry (hard, fast and fine) to be a winning combination.
 
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