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Shinogi Line + Blended/Convex Bevel? (Gyutos)

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Don Nguyen

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I do like myself a convex or blended bevel, but I also looooove a clean shinogi line. From what I know, yanagi's have a clean shinogi as well as a slightly convex bevel, right?

What are your thoughts on trying this with a gyuto? Is it already old news?
 

memorael

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I have never heard of this... Maybe if the shinogi line is pretty high on the blade there won't be any problems, or if the knife is thin enough. Probably best to just make a contrast using finger stones or something to give the illusion of a shinogi line.
 

tk59

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Heiji, Zakuri, Yoshikane, Kochi and Carter utilize elements of this type of grind. I'm sure there are others but these are what come to mind.
 

Andrew H

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Heiji, Zakuri, Yoshikane, Kochi and Carter utilize elements of this type of grind. I'm sure there are others but these are what come to mind.
Tinh, are any of the knives (other than Carter) concave below the 'shinogi' line?
 

tk59

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All of them to some extent or another, but it's questionable whether this is by design or the product of the use of grinding wheels, as opposed to belts grinders. Carters (of which I've seen quite a few) are just about flat at some points and convex/concave at others, for example. When you're sharpening, you're not going to thin it concave so unless you plan on sending it back to the manufacturer, the concave part is temporary, imo.

Watanabe is another one that grinds this way.
 

Don Nguyen

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I noticed that the ones I've found so far either: have a hammer or kurouchi finish, or their bevel only travels up about 1/3 of the blade height.





I really, really like the look of this carter, as the line is higher on the blade.


However, aside from the Heiji, which has a shorter bevel, I haven't found any that have a really distinct and sharp shinogi line. They look kind of wavy and washed.

These are the kinds of grinds I really love, where the shinogi is halfway up the blade height, and they are prominent and cleeeean.




I do realize that it's a difference between single and double bevel, and all sorts of factors including thicknesses, angles, finishes, bevel heights, etc.
 

Andrew H

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If you want to do a gyuto with a shinogi line similar to one that is on a yanagiba or usuba the knife will be far too thick.
 

Don Nguyen

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Yeah, maybe I'm looking for a mythical entity that doesn't exist... :(

Perhaps I try to grind a knife like this, though? Just as an idea, it's very exaggerated; the spine wont be sharp or anything, the idea is just to have a slight angle above the shinogi line. Hope I'm not being too confusing.



Similarly to how some knives have false edges above the actual bevel, along the whole knife?

I imagine there are probably performance issues with this, then =/
 

tk59

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If you want to do a gyuto with a shinogi line similar to one that is on a yanagiba or usuba the knife will be far too thick.
Nah. I think you could do it, esp. if you aren't doing it by hand. . The thinner the knife the more difficult it's gonna be to get a clean shinogi just because the difference in angle will be so minute.
 

tk59

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Yeah, maybe I'm looking for a mythical entity that doesn't exist... :(

Perhaps I try to grind a knife like this, though? Just as an idea, it's very exaggerated; the spine wont be sharp or anything, the idea is just to have a slight angle above the shinogi line. Hope I'm not being too confusing.



Similarly to how some knives have false edges above the actual bevel, along the whole knife?

I imagine there are probably performance issues with this, then =/
I ground a knife like this. Shigefusa tends to do a less exaggerated version, as well.
 

Andrew H

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Nah. I think you could do it, esp. if you aren't doing it by hand. . The thinner the knife the more difficult it's gonna be to get a clean shinogi just because the difference in angle will be so minute.
I guess there is only one way to find out for sure, but I'm guessing there is a reason why it hasn't been done. I assume when Don means gyuto with a shinogi he will be doing it to both sides, BTW.
 

Andrew H

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I ground a knife like this. Shigefusa tends to do a less exaggerated version, as well.
Really? I Always thought Shigefusa had a thin mid-section from having a mainly concave grind then a slight convex grind near the edge. :surrendar:
 

tk59

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I guess there is only one way to find out for sure, but I'm guessing there is a reason why it hasn't been done. I assume when Don means gyuto with a shinogi he will be doing it to both sides, BTW.
You know, I seem to remember the new Mizunos having a subtle secondary bevel/shinogi thing going...
 

tk59

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Really? I Always thought Shigefusa had a thin mid-section from having a mainly concave grind then a slight convex grind near the edge. :surrendar:
You could look at it that way. The examply sitting here in fron of me is thicker in the middle than it is on the spine or the edge (obviously). That's all I'm saying.
 

Don Nguyen

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I'd have to play around with the idea first. Initially what I wanted to do was (on a right-handed knife) have close to a full-flat on the left side and on the right side have the bevel with the shinogi.

Though, it seems like it's incredibly difficult, just because of such small differences with the angle, and I'm trying to get a convex bevel with it. Maybe I'm trying to be too fancy with this?
 

Andrew H

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You could look at it that way. The examply sitting here in fron of me is thicker in the middle than it is on the spine or the edge (obviously). That's all I'm saying.
I'll defer to you having only seen pictures of them.
 

Don Nguyen

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Something like this:



Is that even practical? Am I focusing too much on aesthetics and sacrificing possible performance?
 

tk59

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I have a couple of knives ground almost like that. They work great but you have to deal with some steering, depending on how you do it.
 

Andrew H

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So you want to do a urasuki? I'd probably try doing a flat grind first.
If you have the time I'd give it go. Seems like a good learning experience at least.
 

TB_London

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I find knives with large secondary bevels a la Takeda/watanabe/carter easy to maintain on the stones as you can match this bevel to thin when needs be.
The bevels on the carters that I've had have been quite wavy, but aren't too much work to even out, I did this with my double bevel suji ,though won't be crisp due to the unground area above the bevel
 

tk59

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I can't believe I forgot Takeda and Moritaka... :O
 

schanop

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If you want a higher shinogi line, you can always raise it. This is what I did to my zakuri aoichiko:




You can see that the left side bevel is a bit larger due to lower angle grind, and the right hand bevel has a bit more convexity to it. The shinogi line wouldn't be that sharp because the face is slightly wavy. But it can be neatly done, at least.
 

Pensacola Tiger

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Sarge

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Something like this:



Is that even practical? Am I focusing too much on aesthetics and sacrificing possible performance?
It can be practical. I would say you wouldn't need to thin above your desired shinogi line. Really to get a look like you're looking for on a gyuto all you'd need is a steady hand and some patience. I'll try and locate my camera cord and start a web photo thingy and show you how my new gyuto looks currently. If you have a consistent hand you can put one on in either a number of sharpening sessions or if you have to time and coarse enough stones do it in one. Use the magic marker trick to see how low you have to go with your angle to get the line where you want it and then stay on that angle and convex up from there.

As for the back side you then put that as close to a zero and angle as you want (if you're looking to match your diagram) or whatever deburr/back angle you want. If you're looking to make the back concave then things will be trickier.
 
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