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SOLD Shiraki Hamono 270mm Honyaki Gyuto, Mirror Polished

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Trying shift focus to single bevel honyaki knives.

Brand new, never used/sharpened, new old stock, mirror polished, white 2, ebony and buffalo horn octogonal handle, comes with matching ebony saya.

Edge Length: 275mm
Heel Height: 50mm
Thickness: 3mm
Weight: 268g

Asking $2700 shipped CONUS

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I don’t have any documents, but Shiraki started to make honyaki blades for Ittosai quite some time ago..
Depending on how old the blade is, Nakagawa also made honyakis for Ittosai. I have a 360 Shiraki yanagi which is more than 10 years old w a old Shiraki stamp on the tang. This might be the only way to be sure.
 
You can PM Nakagawa-san on insta and ask if it's him or Shiraki-san. I have done this a couple of times to make sure, he's been great.
 
I guess in some senses it really doesn’t make any difference. If the knife was produced from Shiraki’s Hamono under his kanji the quality should be the same whether produce by Shiraki, Nakagawa or both. The difficulty is that you’re having to produce provenance from an industry that doesn’t seem to place a high value on documentation of origin. To add to the difficulty we can’t take the knife in hand to examine and admire it. There is a difference between a masters knife and a journeyman that seems very obvious in hand. I guess the point is that you bought the knife as a Shiraki. It would just be nice if there was some shred of documentation showing that. It is a very tempting piece. Good luck with your sale.
 
Just confirmed with Yusuke Takahashi from Takahashikusu:

“Dear Mr. Liang
Thank you for your e-mail.

Unfortunately, we are not sure if this Honyaki was made by Mr. Shiraki or not. As you might know, his first apprentice has made knives mainly for several years.

My apologies we cannot give you concrete answers

Hope you enjoy thanksgiving holidays.”

Therefore I have modified the title from Kenichi Shiraki to Shiraki Hamono, and reduce the price to $2500.
 
So the questions are … when was this knife made? Before the arrival of Nakagawa or after, and … are there any signs that differentiate the work of the Master and the apprentice?
I think we are beating a dead horse here...It's being sold as a Shiraki Hamono knife which it is. I have talked with retailers on this and even they say it's extremely hard to know which was made by Shiraki himself. Even Nakagawa said he did not know. Also, not sure I would really classify Nakagawa as an apprentice, at least now with over 20 years of experience under his belt. Forging a Honyaki isn't really something of a job for a simple apprentice.

Edit: This is coming from someone who has a shiraki honyaki with another on the way. These are either made by Shiraki San or made to his standards, and half of the importance or more of the knife is really made by the sharpener anyway regardless...that's more important to me to be honest, the grind. Shiraki and Nakagawa can use the same steel, and heat treat it the same way and do the same hamon pattern, but the performance and finishing is all down to the sharpener. Regardless if you like what you see, grab it and enjoy. I don't think about who specifically forged it when I use/admire it.
 
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I think we are beating a dead horse here...It's being sold as a Shiraki Hamono knife which it is. I have talked with retailers on this and even they say it's extremely hard to know which was made by Shiraki himself. Even Nakagawa said he did not know. Also, not sure I would really classify Nakagawa as an apprentice, at least now with over 20 years of experience under his belt. Forging a Honyaki isn't really something of a job for a simple apprentice.

Edit: This is coming from someone who has a shiraki honyaki with another on the way. These are either made by Shiraki San or made to his standards, and half of the importance or more of the knife is really made by the sharpener anyway regardless...that's more important to me to be honest, the grind. Shiraki and Nakagawa can use the same steel, and heat treat it the same way and do the same hamon pattern, but the performance and finishing is all down to the sharpener. Regardless if you like what you see, grab it and enjoy. I don't think about who specifically forged it when I use/admire it.

I agree totally. I have five Shiraki’s … two of which have provenance directly to Shiraki himself. Three of which have lesser provenance and that therefore can only be attributed to Shiraki Hamono. There is a difference and that difference is the price that can be commanded for the knife. I agree that the sharpener also has great influence on the end product … BUT … I will pay a significant premium for a knife that has reliable direct provenance to Shiraki himsel and that is how this knife was originally advertised. … and as far as I’m concerned that horse ain’t dead.
 
I agree totally. I have five Shiraki’s … two of which have provenance directly to Shiraki himself. Three of which have lesser provenance and that therefore can only be attributed to Shiraki Hamono. There is a difference and that difference is the price that can be commanded for the knife. I agree that the sharpener also has great influence on the end product … BUT … I will pay a significant premium for a knife that has reliable direct provenance to Shiraki himsel and that is how this knife was originally advertised. … and as far as I’m concerned that horse ain’t dead.
Well again like I said, I think it's best to move on from this one knowing there is no more evidence to be found, and the title being changed. Nothing is going to magically change on this piece if Shiraki or Nakagawa forged it (But that's just how I see it). The horse became dead as soon as he changed the listing title. There are already threads of people looking for differences between Shiraki and Nakagawa Honyaki, I think it would be better to have a discussion there or a new thread made instead of the listing.

Also regardless, even with all the paperwork you want and a stamp on the tang, I don't think you could be certain for most of these if the man himself forged it unless you have like video evidence or something, or if one of them told you directly. I'm curious what your provenance is to Shiraki himself for your two knives? If even Nakagawa can't tell you who forged it that should mean something. They did runs of knives for retailers like Jikko and Knives and Stones, etc. Even in those batches I am sure they made a pile of Honyaki, some being Shiraki and some being Nakagawa depending on the day.

Edit: I think the only way to know for sure is knowing exactly how old it is with a date on the knife and knowing when Nakagawa started.
 
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When I got this knife from Japan, I knew it’s made by Shiraki Hamono. Was assuming it’s the same as the previous sold 300mm which “could be” made by Kenichi Shiraki because of the box and similarities of the blade.
I did asked when the knife was made but Yusuke Takahashi from Takahashikusu was also not sure…

Sorry for the confusion and thanks everyone who joined the discussions!
 
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