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Discussion in 'The Kitchen Knife' started by Mr.Magnus, Jul 27, 2012.

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  1. May 7, 2019 #13411

    valgard

    valgard

    valgard

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    Hahahahaha, I'm supposed to be on one too . But these aren't available anywhere (so you have that going for you Marek ) so I had to take it! I only cut some carrot coins with it before I sharpen it and it seems to be a pretty good cutter but I need to use it more extensively before making my mind.
     
  2. May 7, 2019 #13412

    McMan

    McMan

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    Huh?--I don't see how anyone can agree or disagree with me... I didn't make a point.
    I just posted a diagram from another thread for reference. If you're saying you think the diagram is wrong, then that's another matter.

    Machi can be set flush to the handle (i.e. OsakaJoe’s preference) or left with a gap so that it is noticeable. There are reasons for a gap as well as reasons not to like one. Regardless of gap or no, one benefit of a machi is a taller neck (emoto) as compared to a stick tang. Some people (me included) find this more comfortable than the shorter neck of a stick tang.
     
  3. May 7, 2019 #13413

    Corradobrit1

    Corradobrit1

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    'Mind the gap!' :)

    Jon put it pretty well here
    "I know that many on here do not like them, so i thought i would take some time to explain a bit about them. First, the biggest thing to know is that there are regional differences in aesthetics. Kanto tends to like large gaps, while kansai does not. However, most knife makers/retailers/wholesalers in japan will still leave them if it makes more sense to than not. However, on request from many us retailers, many wholesalers in japan have started installing the handles flush with the handle. So, the question becomes "why leave a gap?"

    There are a few reasons the gaps are left... here are some of the top ones

    -When the neck of the knife is short (which can happen for a variety of reasons or sometimes none at all), the spacing between the choil and the handle becomes important. This space should be large enough to fit about 80% of your middle finger when holding the knife in a pinch grip. Smaller than this will be too small and is uncomfortable to hold. Larger than this will be too loose and can make rotary control of the knife more difficult than it should be. 80% or so gives enough space for the finger to fit, but is tight enough that the finger is still in contact with the handle for rotational stability. Also, what i have just said is based on what one would expect for a gyuto. Ideal sizes will be different based on knife types, expected grips, intended customers, etc.

    -Handle installation... This is not only for ease of installing handles in the traditional japanese way (which is easier than using epoxy, allows for easier handle replacement, and removal of handles for maintenance), but also allows for knife placement relative to the handle. Knives with no machi will have a spine that is significantly lower than the top of the handle for example. On significantly harder woods (like ebony), the tang with the machi makes installation significantly easier with less chance of the wood cracking (which can be a problem with ebony).

    Here are the top reasons i hear for people not wanting machi gaps...

    -Food gets stuck. I've used knives with machi gaps for many years, both at home and in professional kitchens. This area is almost always covered with your hand and is not generally at risk for food getting stuck. If food does get in there, its a long way from being stuck, and comes out with general knife cleaning. If you find food accumulating, the chances are you may not be taking care of your knife well enough in my opinion. I've seen a wide number of knives from a wide number of people. I see just as many very dirty knives with no machi as i do dirty ones with a machi. I would venture to say, a dirty knife is more a function of the user than the knife design.

    -It catches on your finger. I've found this to be the case with very large machi gaps or on some lower end knives that have machis that extend beyond the handle in width (or height depending on how you think about it). However, after significant testing, i've found that on knives with normal sized machi gaps, if this turns into a problem, it is most often the result of the use of an improper grip. When knives are held properly, your fingers dont really make contact with this area in a way than can catch.

    -And of course, some people just dont like the way it looks... actually, this one is the reason i understand best.

    The reason i say this, is that sometimes i ask makers to reduce or remove the machi gaps based on customer requests. However, i have a stipulation i have discussed with them. I would prefer that if and when they reduce the gap, they do it to an extent that does not sacrifice the ability to grip and use the knife well.

    Anyways, hope this helps make sense of this to some of you.

    -Jon"

    I think I've read its also a regional thing. Tokyo-style to have a gap......
     
  4. May 7, 2019 #13414

    ian

    ian

    ian

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    Apologies, @McMan. Didn’t mean to be provocative. I just meant that I was having a hard time reconciling the diagram you linked with how osaka and Jon were talking about it. I appreciate that you linked the diagram, though.

    Anyway, this is all a bit silly: someone had asked at some point above what ‘machi’ is, and being annoyingly pedantic I was trying to figure out which exact part of the knife it is. E.g. the gap, the T shape consisting of the thinner part of the tang and the adjacent step, the top of the T consisting of just the step, the bottom of the T, the part of the T that’s visible after handle installation, etc...
     
  5. May 7, 2019 #13415

    Dhoff

    Dhoff

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    I'm not sure I follow, there is no machi on a yo handled knife? Why is it a problem when pinch gripping a wa?
     
  6. May 7, 2019 #13416

    Corradobrit1

    Corradobrit1

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    Not referring to YO handles. This was part of the osakaJoe/Ian discussion re machi and gaps on Wa handled knives. Wrong thread for these discussions though.
     
  7. May 7, 2019 #13417

    _THS_

    _THS_

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    Black on black is a classy touch
     
  8. May 7, 2019 #13418

    osakajoe

    osakajoe

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    Here’s a picture.
    [​IMG]

    I’ve put on thousands of handles and seen others do hundreds. I mostly chalk up the gap or space to being afraid of cracking the horn.

    This is very easy to do since where the tang meets the Machi it is thickest. If you haven’t burned in enough room for the tang you feel the knife not wedging down in as much when you hammer it on. So it’s better to stop and leave it where it is the risk breaking the handle.

    Why don’t they burn in more room? Takes more time and usually don’t want to bother as that’s they way they’ve always done it. No need to change now. Very Japanese.

    Just take a look at a few debas if you have a chance. Most debas have no Machi and will range differently on how much hammered in they are. There’s a point to stop or risk losing product. Debas are extremely thick and take more time if the handle doesn’t have a big enough hole that begin with.

    Most Japanese chefs don’t rest a finger underneath the corner for most usage. Hence why the handles are predominantly shinogi (D-shaped). Most of their fingers are resting on the ridge. You will then most often see the index finger up on the spine when using a Deba or Yanagiba. Sometimes the Deba you have a finger underneath the corner, but again most debas don’t come with a Machi. Even the usuba when doing Katsura-muki your resting your finger on the ridge of the handle behind the spine to move it up and down while the thumb is behind the bottom corner.

    So in my personal opinion I don’t see the logic behind leaving a space. If you need more room why not change the corner grind to have more space or lower the Machi for more space when flush.

    Also forgot to mention I’ve heard people say the gap makes it easier to sharpen and relates to how the old style of putting on handles with no glue or sealing. Eventually water gets in loosening up the handle so the gap allows one to hammer it in further down the road. These are just rumors I’ve heard.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
  9. May 9, 2019 #13419

    Andrew

    Andrew

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    Delayed taking photos for no good reason, but here they are- sorry for the poor quality...
    upload_2019-5-8_16-22-11.jpeg upload_2019-5-8_16-22-21.jpeg upload_2019-5-8_16-22-31.jpeg upload_2019-5-8_16-22-45.jpeg upload_2019-5-8_16-22-58.jpeg
     
  10. May 10, 2019 #13420

    AT5760

    AT5760

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    Got home late from work and this was here! Can’t wait to put it to use tomorrow.
     

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  11. May 10, 2019 #13421

    JustinP

    JustinP

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    For us noobs, what is it?
     
  12. May 10, 2019 #13422

    Chicagohawkie

    Chicagohawkie

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    Ashi!
     
  13. May 10, 2019 #13423

    rob

    rob

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    Screen Shot 2019-05-10 at 12.06.58 PM.png
    Salem Straub 220mm San Mai Cleaver. 260 grams.
     
  14. May 10, 2019 #13424

    JustinP

    JustinP

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    Well, I really am a noob, aren't I? :D
     
  15. May 10, 2019 #13425

    valgard

    valgard

    valgard

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    These look amazing.
     
  16. May 10, 2019 #13426

    bahamaroot

    bahamaroot

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    Just added this to the stable. Recent run of Konosuke B2 Fujiyama sharpened by Morihiro.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  17. May 10, 2019 #13427

    Lars

    Lars

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    Just received a Munetoshi Butcher from the JNS anniversary sale.
    Here it is with the cleaver.. Sorry for the low quality photo..

    IMG_0028.jpg
     
  18. May 10, 2019 #13428

    Spipet

    Spipet

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    That is a mean butchery duo!!
     
  19. May 10, 2019 #13429

    valgard

    valgard

    valgard

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    I love that
     
  20. May 10, 2019 #13430

    Chicagohawkie

    Chicagohawkie

    Chicagohawkie

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    C4FBD2B4-3FC9-4C4F-B47C-FB1B9DA2A36F.jpeg 204493CC-0043-438E-8CFE-F8D421504212.jpeg C4FBD2B4-3FC9-4C4F-B47C-FB1B9DA2A36F.jpeg 204493CC-0043-438E-8CFE-F8D421504212.jpeg Kono most recent Funayuki. I would say that this goes way beyond a laser, it’s a razor blade. Thinner than my shibata KS clone which I didn’t think could be any thinner. You can easily distort the edge with your finger nail without much pressure. Pretty sure edge retention is going to be non existent. Gonna sharpen out the micro chips and see how this works.
     
  21. May 10, 2019 #13431

    HRC_64

    HRC_64

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    The modern "Fuji" series seems to have variances in heft.

    The FM i tried in b2 was reasonably solid knife,
    whereas the wh1 was a track car.

    Do you think that's just a light sample or are all the funaykis
    got that crazy lazer grind likt the FT (or whatever the lasest thin verions is)?
     
  22. May 10, 2019 #13432

    Chicagohawkie

    Chicagohawkie

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    I have no idea about the variances of the new so called Fuji’s. This is the first one I’ve tried. I will say it’s nothing like the older Fuji’s. I’ve heard from a few that some of these have been very,very thin. I haven’t used it yet, but I’m gonna assume that it’s gonna plow through soft produce like nothing other. I think this will be a decent use at home knife for the casual user, but in no way is this a professional use knife - this edge would never endure a rugged work environment.
     
  23. May 10, 2019 #13433

    labor of love

    labor of love

    labor of love

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    Is that a Fujiyama funayuki?
     
  24. May 10, 2019 #13434

    Chicagohawkie

    Chicagohawkie

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    Who knows what it is, I know it ain’t a true Fuji. It’s super thin and has a KS type profile. 247 mm in length and 52 mm at the heel.
     
  25. May 10, 2019 #13435

    labor of love

    labor of love

    labor of love

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    Well, it sounds pretty sweet. Is it a keeper?
     
  26. May 10, 2019 #13436

    chinacats

    chinacats

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    So was it sold as 270? Curious what makes it a funyaki? Either way i love the size/profile but guessing it may be rather delicate for my use. Nice score.
     
  27. May 11, 2019 #13437

    Chicagohawkie

    Chicagohawkie

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    Haven’t used it yet, needs a good sharpening. Very delicate knife.
     
  28. May 11, 2019 #13438

    Chicagohawkie

    Chicagohawkie

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    I think it was marketed as a 250? 255? This would not last in working environment. This is 100 percent for sure the thinnest edge I’ve ever possessed.
     
  29. May 11, 2019 #13439

    labor of love

    labor of love

    labor of love

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    There’s some kono MMs 270mm right now that are 250mm edge length! Perfect size!
     
  30. May 11, 2019 #13440

    Deshi

    Deshi

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    Gorgeous blade!

    Always understood a funayuki to be shorter and have a (proportionally) wider profile than this, as it was traditionally a fisherman’s utility knife - a hybrid of a deba and a gyuto, with a double grind - see image below. Thinner than a deba, or even a mioroshi deba, but still a something of a workhorse (rather than a laser) since it was a utility tool, to serve for multiple tasks in the limited galley space aboard a fishing boat.

    But it’s the maker’s choice to name the blade, I suppose, and a rose, by any other name, is still a rose ...

    You definitely have a lovely blade, whatever it is!

    B8B350E6-C8BC-494D-BD46-EE9C4C085582.jpeg
     

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