slicing bread

[merlijny2k]

Hey,

I bought my first real knife in November, an Eden Kanso Aogami 240mm gyuoto. I've noticed that it slices bread much better than my serrated bread knife. Less strokes, less crumbs. So now i'm left wondering:
Does a serrated bread knife really have much use? I often see them listed as one of the five must-have knives. I still use mine but only for cutting baguettes in-hand. Wouldn't be too smart using the gyuto for that i guess:biggrin:

Penny for your thoughts.

 

[Cashn]

For the super crusty loaves I rather a bread knife. It's also one knife I won't mind bringing to a friends house if I know it'll be the sharpest thing there and other people will probably use it, and abuse it. I picked up a Tojiro a while ago and like it a lot better than the victorinox or equivalent ones.

 

[Mrmnms]

I think you partially answered your own question . A serrated knife is well suited to certain tasks like crusty bread and smoked meats with heavy bark. Can you use something else ? Sure. I was slicing bread with an HHH Aeb-l Gyuto yesterday and today. Toothy enough to work well. Some of my others don't do the same job so well, perhaps the edge is more refined. I have a couple serrateds around if I'm doing a lot of bread, or if someone else is doing the slicing. Some guys still prefer an electric knife for the same tasks. I understand why.

 

[daveb]

A good Gyuto will trump a crap bread knife for most any task. And if the bread knife is part of a set....


A good bread knife does not need to be expensive, Torjiho, Mac, 210 Gude, are all available south of 100 bucks. That's where you'll see less tearing, crumbs and more versatility for hard crusted bread and crusted meats. With a quick search you could read about bread knives for three days here.

 

[Jovidah]

It depends a lot on the bread and on your bread knife.

For example, the average soft Dutch supermarket bread can be cut well by pretty much any blunt butter knife without much problems. When you're talking the higher quality artisan bread (or for example German bread) with a very hard crust it becomes a different story; you need the teeth to break the crust. If the crust gets hard enough you'll find the gyuto skidding across the top at some point.

Also, the quality of the bread knife can make a huge difference. There's plenty of **** ones. If you want a proper one without breaking the bank, get the Victorinox fibrox banketbakkersmes 26 cm; it's awesome, cuts even the hardest crusts without much crumbs, the extra length is great and on top of that you can get it for about 30 euros if you look hard enough.

 

[ThEoRy]

[video=youtube;dvNs4zB6zXg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvNs4zB6zXg[/video]

 

[Duckfat]

[video=youtube;dvNs4zB6zXg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvNs4zB6zXg[/video]

Now that's impressive for a bread knife! I wish I could get my Masahiro to act like that. What I've really been tempted by lately is the 12" Guede.

 

[Benuser]

I recently found the very thin carbon steel Herder 1922 Tranchelard to be great on hard, crusty bread.

 

[richard]

Also if you toast a crusty breads, your straight edge knives, sharp as they may be, well just skid on the surface.

 

[masibu]

ive been thinking about this a lot recently actually. i try to use a gyuto for bread as it's cleaner but those real hard crusts seem to laugh at a thin, polished gyuto edge. good bread knives seem to make better work of them as they feel like they grip onto the crust better. eventually they will need sharpening like any other knife though..how difficult is it to sharpen up bread knives?

I'm also wondering whether you could make a gyuto or slicer better able to handle such bread? If it were to be sharpened at a very low grit could the edge be able to get that same "grippy" feeling? I'm thinking the angles would need to be higher (more obtuse) than normal to ensure greater edge strength and stability as well.

 

[merlijny2k]

Perhaps I haven't found hard enough bread yet then. I buy mostly from the local turkish bakery but also from various supermarkets to posh organic inner city bread shops and any in between. Haven't come accross a crust the gyuto can't handle yet. Almost never buy white bread though, so can't comment on that.

I sharpen on a #2000/5000 whetstone i bought with the gyuto. Only used the 5000 side so far. I dont know as what kind of edge you qualify that.

Must admit the bread knife is a cheap one and i dont sharpen it since i dont have the gear for it. Havent noticed a decline in performance since my wife bought it though. Guess beyond a certain point and absent heavy abuse it doesnt dull that much.

 

[Keith Sinclair]

For softer breads without a hard crust a sharp gyuto does the job. Trouble most people do not have sharp chef knives so they need a bread knife. I buy fresh French and roasted garlic loafs from local Bali bakery always use a sharp gyuto do not even own a bread knife.

 

[Jovidah]

Perhaps I haven't found hard enough bread yet then. I buy mostly from the local turkish bakery but also from various supermarkets to posh organic inner city bread shops and any in between. Haven't come accross a crust the gyuto can't handle yet. Almost never buy white bread though, so can't comment on that.

I sharpen on a #2000/5000 whetstone i bought with the gyuto. Only used the 5000 side so far. I dont know as what kind of edge you qualify that.

Must admit the bread knife is a cheap one and i dont sharpen it since i dont have the gear for it. Havent noticed a decline in performance since my wife bought it though. Guess beyond a certain point and absent heavy abuse it doesnt dull that much.

Most of the Turkish bread around here is pretty soft... same goes for anything that goes into a plastic bag, and almost everything you can get in supermarkets here (even the 'better' stuff). It stays fresh for longer but the crust will lose some of its hardness. Whole different story when you take hard-crusted bread and put it in a paper bag. Personally I wouldn't want to put a good gyuto edge on that... it's just a waste; it'll either skid or blunt faster (or you might get microchipping).

About the whetstone... well I have/had the same and while it might say 2000/5000 it isn't. The 2000 is coarser than my 1000 Naniwa. The 5000 is only slightly better than my 1000 and nowhere near the 5000. So in essence I guess you're using what most people here would call a relatively unpolished 'toothy' edge.

 

[Casaluz]

If you ask francophiles about bread they will praise the beautiful sound of a serrated bread knife as it cracks the crust of a well made bread, and there is much to be said for that in bringing pleasure to the procedure. I have two bread knives, a Wüsthof and the Tojiro ITK 270. I really like the Wüsthof, however I really do not like the Tojiro. In fact I was so unhappy with the serrated design that I sent the knife to change the serrated edge to a traditional design and put a very aggressive edge. My wife likes it but I do not.
Once in a while I toy with the idea of giving the Tojiro to someone else and get a MAC or a GUDE, however I cannot justify it because I am happy with my Wüsthof which can be sharpened locally, and the truth is that 9 out of 10 times I use a gyuto to cut bread. If it is well sharpened, a gyuto does a perfectly fine job of cutting bread. The only instance I can think of where I rather use a bread knife is when cutting oval pieces out of a bunch of baguettes for finger food at a party...

 

[merlijny2k]

My main issue with the stone is how fast it wears out. Especially the 2000 side. Have it less than half a year and im about 1/4 of its thickness in. Gave it a lot of work though reconditioning my inlaws knife collection. Some of the stainless knives and especially one of my scissors just eat into it without getting sharp. Works great on the gyuto though. Gotta get that to work soon too. Was showing it off to my nephew and tada. Three medium sized chips. :O

 

[Jovidah]

The Eden 2000/5000 much an entry-level stone for a cheap start into sharpening. I gave mine to a friend a while back; they're a nice cheap way to try and see if sharpening is for you, but if you want to get serious about it I'd really advise upgrading. They're too small, slow, dish quickly, feel crappy, really soft so you cut into them easily and only they leave a so-so edge. On the plus side; they are super cheap. You get what you pay for.

By now you've also discovered why people have a line-up with coarser stones. Using a 2000 stones for everything is both a lengthy and costly affair. Fixing chips or resharpening blunt knives goes a lot faster on coarser stones and you'll use much less of your more expensive finishing stones. I used to have the 240/800 Eden stone as well and it has all the same disadvantages as your stone, with the same advantage. It's real cheap. But unless you're on an extremely tight budget I'd advise you to go for an upgrade straight away (like the Naniwa professional). They're much more useful and pleasant to work with.

 

[merlijny2k]

But unless you're on an extremely tight budget I'd advise you to go for an upgrade straight away (like the Naniwa professional). They're much more useful and pleasant to work with.

I'm not really on a tight budget,but i do have a wife who looks increasingly suspicious at all these new knife stuff entering her kitchen.

I do have a course stone. The kind you can buy for $1,50 at the budget hardware chain Gamma here. Used to be my only sharpener for over a decade and shows less signs of wear than the Eden.

I'm kind of conflicted between going for better whetstones next or getting a Lansky.

Members here seem to have something against guided systems but i dont really get what the big disadvantage is other than that it maybe takes a bit more time.

 

[Benuser]

Sharpening is not just putting an edge on the end of a piece of steel. When you sharpen, you move the edge very slightly into the direction of the spine. At its new location the blade is somewhat thicker. This is why you better start your sharpening somewhere far behind the edge, and come only little by little towards the very edge. This allows you to restore the entire configuration in its new place.
It's not impossible but highly impractical to achieve the same with a guided system. Therefore, most users only sharpen the very edge, ignoring the configuration were the very edge is only a part of. After a few sharpening sessions, expect performance loss, wedging and steering.
Systems tend to deliver nice looking edges but poor cutters.

 

[Benuser]

http://s19.postimg.org/6nbg1qy03/sharpen4.jpg

 

[Jovidah]

That Lansky looks like a toy... also, with all of these guided systems there's a bit of a false economy going on. The 'stones' might look cheap, but they're so small and there's so little material on them that you'll get relatively little use out of them. On top of that
the standard Lansky set only goes up to a 1000 grit; even your current Eden stones are better than that.
And on top of that there are the problems Benuser already mentioned.

I'd say go for better whetstones. Believe me there are much better and slower-wearing stones around than the Eden combi-stone you have now. The cheap hardware stones are...well.. more like the coarser Eden combi-stone than like proper Japanese stones.

 

[daveb]

Lansky is not the answer.

What was the question?

 

[merlijny2k]

Lansky is not the answer.

What was the question?

:lol2:

 

[merlijny2k]

The cheap hardware stones are...well.. more like the coarser Eden combi-stone than like proper Japanese stones.

I am well aware of the limitations of the cheap course stone! Like i've said i've been using it for the past decade. The most important drawback being that you can not get a sharp knife using it. Ergo me buying the Eden. When i first bought the Eden it was a revelation. Before sharpening for me always meant trying to restore the OOTB sharpness of <$10 knives and just not quite succeeding. Now all my knives are sharper then when i bought them and i'm a happy critter, except the Eden wearing away so fast.

As for the problem mentioned with knife geometry: I understand how you can easily thin a knife that has ben hollowground behind the edge. In fact i've been thinning some of my cheapest knives so enthusiastically the entire hollow part is now gone but they cut way better than before. My german knives however are flat ground or whatever you call it. It seems strange to put the entire knife flat on the stone and grind on the sides. That way i'd lose the etching of the name on the side and it would probably take forever right? So i figure if it can't be done anyway it's not really a drawback buying a tool that can't do it.

I'm probably wrong seeing that i'm a newbie but this is just my best understanding.

 

[Benuser]

Hollow or flat ground are rather unusual with kitchen knives. In most cases both faces are more or less convexed, and certainly the right one to allow food separation.
I wouldn't suggest to put the entire face flat on the stone.
In order to maintain performance, watch what happens in the first centimetre behind the edge, and perhaps, later on, in the next one.
A few figures from a very common German blade, the Herder 1922 chef's. Immediately behind the edge, expect a thickness of 0.20mm. At 0,5cm from the edge, 0.5mm. At 1cm something like 1mm and at 2cm slightly less than 2mm. By the way, the spine is some 3mm thick.
If you have sharpened off a few mm only from the edge a great performer has almost become an axe.

 

[Benuser]

Thinning can simply be performed by sharpening at the lowest angle you're comfortable with. Take care and have your stone flattened or you may scuff the face. On a good thin blade you will create a small bevel of perhaps a mm or 2 before you reach the very edge. Verify by looking at the scratch pattern or the patina that has gone.
With thicker, neglected knives that relief bevel may become quite big. Further thinning by applying a lot of pressure at a farther point from the edge may have become necessary.

 

[merlijny2k]

On really, really cheap knives, hollow ground is the standard. Anything that is less than 5$ for a chef's knife is almost always hollow ground. 1.25 or 1.5mm at the spine, than flat to about 1 to 1.5 cm from the edge, then hollow ground. Fat edge bevel to about 0,5mm thick where the hollow section starts. It's only now that i started to read about knives i've come to know that it is a geometry that's cheap to make, but not very good to cut with.

You may be right about the german knives being convex, they seem flat to me but maybe i just don't know what to look for. The gyuto is hollow though, no doubt about that.

 

[Benuser]

Really?

 

[superk17]

I bake a lot of sourdough breads and bouquets. I found that my gyuoto works just great on the sandwich loafs and soft breads but not so well on the sourdough bread with a harder crust. I use long 11 inch bread knife and I think that extra length makes a difference for the sourdough loaf.

 

[merlijny2k]

Really?

Well, no. I was really convinced it was though. Just found the ruler test elsewhere on the forum and it turns out the bevel on the Eden gyuto is flat, not hollow. G.e. Ern is convex, not flat. Learned something today i guess......

 

[Rotem Shoshani]

Also if you toast a crusty breads, your straight edge knives, sharp as they may be, well just skid on the surface.

Hate to revive a 4 year old thread, but I just toasted a burger bun as a toast for my sons' dinner and wanted to test the edge durability knowing it'll be hard and I'll have to push cut it, pretty positive I wasn't torquing the knife while doing so.

Is it possible the knife dulled in some spots after 3-4 of those cuts?