If Shawn (@Deadboxhero) is talking about his own stones, which I assume he is, they have backing. You can find more here:
Triple B Handmade
and here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC-Y6zU-FcjYFWmM3hKNWtQ
Slowest wearing medium grit synthetic?
- Thread starter spaceconvoy
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If Shawn (@Deadboxhero) is talking about his own stones, which I assume he is, they have backing. You can find more here:
Triple B Handmade
and here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC-Y6zU-FcjYFWmM3hKNWtQ
spaceconvoy
Senior Member
Just picked up the Pro 1K and 2K to round out my midrange Shapton collection, with my existing 1500 and Glass 500. I need more time to evaluate but my initial impression is the SP1k is too muddy and dished the most when measured with calipers. In comparison I prefer the GS500. The SP2k seems like the standout, judging by the dark swarth and lack of mud. The 1500 feels almost like a different series, as smooth as the 2k but very muddy. If I had to choose right now I'd stick with the GS500 and SP2k. In the next few weeks I'll try to do a more rigorous comparison and probably start a new thread.
inferno
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yeah the 1k pro is a bit more muddy than the 2k. and the 500. but i'd say it does not release much mud. imo of course. it of course depends on how you use it. i use mine quite light. its fast enough. but you can also mash it really hard and the stone will just get faster and faster. you can really abuse it if you want.
i'd say you probably dont need the 1k if you already have the 500 glass, since they are very similar. but the 1k is a very good base for a kasumi finish.
also the 3 and 4k glass are very good imo.
i'd say you probably dont need the 1k if you already have the 500 glass, since they are very similar. but the 1k is a very good base for a kasumi finish.
also the 3 and 4k glass are very good imo.
SG 500 and 4k and Pro 2k make a nice all around set for stainless and carbon.
inferno
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its probably all anyone ever gonna need. for all steels.
It would be interesting to know the level of pressure used. SP1K « muddy » is surprising to me. It’s a stone I can sharpen on with a single splash and what’s left in the end is mostly less water and added swarf.
Even forcing mud out of it with the Atoma is a vain process where very little is produced for the effort, and with minimal water will still evacuate itself quickly.
Wider area of a blade then yes it creates mud just enough for a polish.
spaceconvoy
Senior Member
I was surprised too, not only muddier than I expected but also somewhat thirsty, at least compared to the other Shaptons. I didn't think these stones had a crust, but maybe it'll behave better after a few lappings? I was doing maintenance thinning on mono and clad stainless, maybe that's the difference.
It does need some layer to be over with IIRC. Been a long time and I wasn’t really observant back then.
Luftmensch
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It seems to be a trade-off hey?
Chosera cut fast but they dish like mad. The self slurring does a good job of keeping the surface fresh. Particularly if the water is refreshed.
The Shapton pro 120 is very, very hard and slow to dish... it works fast... but only for 10-20 passes. At that point it clogs up (or perhaps the surface abrasives are worn out) and it becomes quite slow. You need to refresh the surface with a diamond plate. In the end I suspect the Chosera 400 would be faster... but mine now looks like a skateboard ramp... so it is hard to do precise wide-bevel thinning on.
For now... maybe you can't have that continuous cutting experience and a minimally-dishing stone? Perhaps vitrified diamond does offer that experience?? I am very curious to try (especially for low end thinning) but the cost always turns me off. On the other end of the cost spectrum perhaps Norton needs more love??
Use soft stainless cladding on Pro 120. Causes it to create slurry. On some claddings, it can pull out small chunks though.
Luftmensch
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I have only tried it on carbon steels. Perhaps it it is better suited to other alloys?
It is definitely both aggressive and... not... For the carbon steel knives I have tried, when it is fresh it works fast and can cause some deep scratches (i know what you mean about small chunks). Once 'dull' it the cutting speed (and perhaps depth) slow down leaving a surprisingly shiny polish! While I couldnt say for certain why it slows down, my guess is not clogging. It seems more like the slurry and exposed (attached) abrasives from reconditioning the surface wear out without releasing any new particles. Perhaps stainless is 'grabbier' and it can tear out more abrasives when being worked?
The shapton 120 is lower grit than @spaceconvoy is seeking. In retrospect, perhaps it seems tangential why I raise it as an example. Despite being a lower grit than the Chosera 400, I wouldnt be surprised if the Chosera removed material more quickly. Perhaps that is only perception!? But it does seem like releasing finer grit at a regular rate (high dishing) may wear away steel faster than barely ever releasing a lower grit (slow dishing)! While I don't think that a slow wearing, fast stone is impossible... perhaps it does need more exotic technology (diamonds)?? Otherwise I suspect we'd all be using them!
The abrasives get rounded. I've tried many things to make that stone consistently usable. I've gotten to the point I use a Shun beater to create slurry when it does it. And 3m pro 60 grit sandpaper to flatten it.
inferno
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with the 120 i find its important to keep some slurry on there, and work it. then it exposes new abrasive.
if you let the 120 go too smooth you need to refinish it with sic powder or similar.
i would guess in regular use the 220 is actually just as fast or even faster than the 120 most of the time.
i feel the 120 needs a lot higher pressure to work really fast.
if you let the 120 go too smooth you need to refinish it with sic powder or similar.
i would guess in regular use the 220 is actually just as fast or even faster than the 120 most of the time.
i feel the 120 needs a lot higher pressure to work really fast.
A q for you, and others who might know... is my perception that my coarse Norton SiC wears much less than my other synthetics correct? I've used it a lot for quite significant work on both carbon and stainless, never flattened it, and it still seems to cut very well. I've not really felt any rounding of the abrasives or anything.
Something to do with SiC stones? Or am I mis-remembering and it was actually more aggressive when I got about a year ago...?
Luftmensch
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Your speed test a while back was super impressive. I really liked the approach there...
I am sure a finer grit stone that releases grit constantly/faster would cut faster... How long does reconditioning with SiC power last? I use the 120 with a thick slurry. It definitely extends the use time! But once the slurry is exhausted... the stone glazes....
Ha! That is an interesting idea!! Does the stainless swarf help keep refreshing the surface? Is it any better than creating a slurry with an Atoma?
My only point of reference are shapton glass, chosera and super-stones. I'd put these all in the fast-release & dishing category. Are the other low-mid grits (e.g. King) more similar to these stones or the shapton 120? For low grit thinning, I am currently happy to trade-off slow cutting so that I can work on a relatively flat surface. Once that is done, I'd prefer fast cutting and dishing (low-mids and higher)....
They wear much less than other stones. You probably haven't rounded off the abrasives. They they will last much longer with simple carbon steels. And lighter pressure.
My personal experience, cheap, soft abrasion resistant stainless steels wear out the abrasives on Norton's. The kind you find as house knives in restaurants.
It's the soft stainless cladding pulling abrasives out. I don't bother killing a diamond plate on that stone....again.
King 300 is similar to SP 120 but not as difficult.
Luftmensch
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I was going to hail you and ask if you had any more thoughts about the Norton stones. I am still intrigued by the idea of buying a crystolon stone. They are relatively cheap. It sounds like you have had a good experience
Crystolon stones are vitrified silicon carbide. Silicon carbide is sharper and harder than aluminium oxide.... I believe that makes it well suited to bulk material removal but not so great for polishing (scratchy finish). On the other hand... aluminium oxide apparently breaks down faster exposing fresh cutting edges leading to a more polished finish (lest scratchy pattern).
Perhaps this partially explains the abrasive 'rounding' that @M1k3 mentioned? Once they are round they cut less efficiently and are harder to fracture?
I wouldn't be surprised if all shapton/naniwa (etc) stones were some binder that included either SiC or Al2O3... they are the most popular abrasives. Maybe SiC at the low end and Al2O3 at the high end?? Mostly speculation there... I guess it is possible they use other abrasives (zirconia, boron,....). But I'd guess most of the magic happens in the binder...
Luftmensch
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Ha! Fair enough... I know what you mean!
Eh... that doesn't appeal too much. Maybe it would pair well with another hard low grit? By 500 (definitely by 1000) I'd be choosing a chosera or shapton glass instead...
Closest to that "magic" coarse stone I've found is....
SG500? Heard the Glass 120 isn't quite as frustrating as the Pro though.
Regarding the Crystolon. It's like the grinding on the Sigma 240, but, the teeth clenching grinding is ramped up 100x. And stays flatter waaayyy longer.
I was going to hail you and ask if you had any more thoughts about the Norton stones. I am still intrigued by the idea of buying a crystolon stone. They are relatively cheap. It sounds like you have had a good experience
Crystolon stones are vitrified silicon carbide. Silicon carbide is sharper and harder than aluminium oxide.... I believe that makes it well suited to bulk material removal but not so great for polishing (scratchy finish). On the other hand... aluminium oxide apparently breaks down faster exposing fresh cutting edges leading to a more polished finish (lest scratchy pattern).
Perhaps this partially explains the abrasive 'rounding' that @M1k3 mentioned? Once they are round they cut less efficiently and are harder to fracture?
I wouldn't be surprised if all shapton/naniwa (etc) stones were some binder that included either SiC or Al2O3... they are the most popular abrasives. Maybe SiC at the low end and Al2O3 at the high end?? Mostly speculation there... I guess it is possible they use other abrasives (zirconia, boron,....). But I'd guess most of the magic happens in the binder...
Yes... I have had quite a good experience. Mine is a Norton Bear Coarse and Fine SiC that I got for about $30/40 Aus I think, from Mitre 10. I didn't use to enjoy using it much, as it'd ooze goo the entire time. But I think I've got most out now and it works just as well, maybe better, than before just with a bit of water.
I now really quite like it. I don't think I'd want a posher, dishier (ho ho), coarse stone in the future... I'm happy with this
.A solid #1000'ish resin diamond stone probably would give you everything you are looking for. Maybe with a boosted concentration for extra wear resistance.
inferno
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the reconditioning works until it glazes again. maybe a few minutes. a 220 pro can be kept cutting with just regular use, but it dishes a lot faster.
my 100 grit noname sic stone cut for about 30 seconds then it just made noise, but no actual cutting anymore. i ran it with water.
it you want low wear low grit there is always the king 300, jns 300, dmt/atoma plates, maybe green sic stones like king and sigma. the 220 glass is slower wearing and faster than the 220 pro, but you only get 7mm stone.
then we have sandpaper...
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They do have a backing plate. Those three he is holding are the naniwa stones, not the vitrified ones.
https://www.triplebhandmade.com/shop/x7wolsv44umrzpztvpk8ykt0cojrru
inferno
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one thing i have noticed with hard vitrified stones like the juumas is that soft ss cladding will rip out abrasive and plow deep scratches in the stone and the cladding. really soft cladding can even rip out diamonds out of atomas. not very pretty.. so for soft ss clad blades some stones dont work fast. since you can only use them with low pressure.
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I think the JKI 1 and 6k diamond are more than enough for most people, especially if you're dipping your toes into the diamond world. That said I picked up a vitrified 400 from @Deadboxhero because I sharpen various butchery knives frequently and the only thing worse than thinning knives is having to spend half the time flattening stones. Will probably try for a 1000 grit next time he has them, but this last time they sold out fast.
