Something after natsuya

[CodyJ]

Hey everyone I have a great natsuya that I use to refresh the polish of my San mai knives. I’m wondering what would be an affordable stone or even finger stone follow up option to even out those scratches? I’ve been just creating slurry on my natsuya and coating a damp paper towel with it and finishing off with that.


Any suggestions are appreciated, thanks!

 

[gentiscid]

Morihei 4k (and/or Rika 5k) followed by a jnat like Uchigumori or fingerstones.

 

[Cliff]

I'd stay with naturals. You don't need anything after. I really like the working finish a Natsuya gives. You could move up to a soft suita of some kind. There are endless possibilities.

 

[Bico Doce]

Hey Cody, could you share a pic of the finish you are currently achieving with this natsuya?

 

[CodyJ]

Hey Cody, could you share a pic of the finish you are currently achieving with this natsuya?

I’d love to. I just used it for dinner prep but I will re-polish it tonight. If I spend long enough with the natsuya the finish is quite nice but I find it hard sometimes in certain areas of the knife to get the stray scratches out. I’m sure it’s just my amateur technique.

I’ll update this with a photo/video later tonight after my little ones go to bed.

 

[noj]

Morihei 4k (and/or Rika 5k) followed by a jnat like Uchigumori or fingerstones.

I recently had a similar (private) conversation about a pre-polish progression with synthetics. I tried a Rika 5k, and the results were unpleasant looking. The stone was soaked for an hour. The finish I kept getting looked like 5k-ish scratches mixed with a ton of much courser (1k-ish looking?) scratches. The course scratches were very evenly distributed, not at all like the stone pulled some steel. I tried working the knife with a bit of mud to build, as well as keeping the stone rather clean, and got similar results. Just curious about your (or others) experience.

 

[gentiscid]

I recently had a similar (private) conversation about a pre-polish progression with synthetics. I tried a Rika 5k, and the results were unpleasant looking. The stone was soaked for an hour. The finish I kept getting looked like 5k-ish scratches mixed with a ton of much courser (1k-ish looking?) scratches. The course scratches were very evenly distributed, not at all like the stone pulled some steel. I tried working the knife with a bit of mud to build, as well as keeping the stone rather clean, and got similar results. Just curious about your (or others) experience.

I have used it alot to remove coarse scratches between 2k-3k. Yes Rika are soakers. Rika is not a finisher and will still be fine scratches, but will be easily removed in the progression with a finer jnat like Uchi. Not sure why u having coarse scratches with Rika, maybe u need to lower your pressure on the stone?

 

[aporigine]

Possibly relevant:
My Suehiro 5k is Cerax not Rika. It comes with a little stick of nagura made with some coarse abrasive. I discovered to my displeasure that it sheds grains onto the fine stone. My results improved once I retired that nagura.

 

[noj]

I have used it alot to remove coarse scratches between 2k-3k. Yes Rika are soakers. Rika is not a finisher and will still be fine scratches, but will be easily removed in the progression with a finer jnat like Uchi. Not sure why u having coarse scratches with Rika, maybe u need to lower your pressure on the stone?

I was also using it to remove scratches in a progression. Perhaps pre-finish isn't the right terminology. I tried different pressure, but nothing particularly hard. Whatever the scratches were, the more work on the stone didn't make them go away. The stone has "2103" written on the end, "5000" on the side, and came with a (worse that?) useless nagura. I am pretty sure it was sold as a cerax, but I no longer have the box.

 

[gentiscid]

I was also using it to remove scratches in a progression. Perhaps pre-finish isn't the right terminology. I tried different pressure, but nothing particularly hard. Whatever the scratches were, the more work on the stone didn't make them go away. The stone has "2103" written on the end, "5000" on the side, and came with a (worse that?) useless nagura. I am pretty sure it was sold as a cerax, but I no longer have the box.

 

[Bico Doce]

@noj

There’s quite a bit of info on this thread for synthetic kasumis. It might be helpful

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/the-grandiose-synth-kasumi-thread.51860/

 

[kujaku]

I recently had a similar (private) conversation about a pre-polish progression with synthetics. I tried a Rika 5k, and the results were unpleasant looking. The stone was soaked for an hour. The finish I kept getting looked like 5k-ish scratches mixed with a ton of much courser (1k-ish looking?) scratches. The course scratches were very evenly distributed, not at all like the stone pulled some steel. I tried working the knife with a bit of mud to build, as well as keeping the stone rather clean, and got similar results. Just curious about your (or others) experience.

Did you round the corners of the stone? The scratch might have been caused by the corners.

 

[NickMinton]

@CodyJ have you tried doing high pressure small strokes polishing on the natsuya when it has no slurry?

I think @ethompson was the person I remember bringing up that this is a great way to bring out details that much different than with slurry

 

[noj]

Did you round the corners of the stone? The scratch might have been caused by the corners.

Thanks for the reply. I have a bevel on all working edges and corners. They are more like 45 degree (more or less) bevels than rounded. What struck me is the scratches were rather uniform and everywhere. If I get inspired, I can touch up the stone and try for a 3rd time.

 

[Cliff]

@CodyJ have you tried doing high pressure small strokes polishing on the natsuya when it has no slurry?

I think @ethompson was the person I remember bringing up that this is a great way to bring out details that much different than with slurry

How does this work in practice? I'm always trying to minimize grabbing and nasty scratches.

 

[CodyJ]

@CodyJ have you tried doing high pressure small strokes polishing on the natsuya when it has no slurry?

I think @ethompson was the person I remember bringing up that this is a great way to bring out details that much different than with slurry

Yeah the corners are all rounded. I have found that small strokes with light pressure and no slurry does a better job with creating a brighter core and taking care of the deeper scratches.

Here’s what I got so far. Not great and it looks way better in that lighting. Indirect light it looses a lot of its luster.

 

[Bico Doce]

Yeah the corners are all rounded. I have found that small strokes with light pressure and no slurry does a better job with creating a brighter core and taking care of the deeper scratches.

Here’s what I got so far. Not great and it looks way better in that lighting. Indirect light it looses a lot of its luster.

Natsuya are hard stones despite being on the coarser side. I can see areas where the stone isnt making clean contact such as near the tip. My experience with natsuya has been similar to this, it can bring out details but I dont like the finish on its own. I rarely use it in my progression because of this. I find the following stones a better fit for me in that 2-3K range

Shapton pro 2k
Naniwa Aotoshi
Chosera 3k

A soft muddy suita/uchi could be a good follow up to these stones

 

[noj]

Thanks for the reply. I have a bevel on all working edges and corners. They are more like 45 degree (more or less) bevels than rounded. What struck me is the scratches were rather uniform and everywhere. If I get inspired, I can touch up the stone and try for a 3rd time.

Last post on this, since it's not exactly on-topic. The knife was virtually scratchless beforehand. I very carefully flattened the stone, and beveled edges. Everything was cleaned before and after, including flattening plate, to insure no cross contamination. And ... yuck! I am not a great photographer, so the photo only shows scratches in one spot (where light is reflecting), but they are everywhere. I noticed them immediately, even with a very light touch. This stone might be a nice mix of grits for a toothy edge, but for polishing work, it's a mess. I spent time re-finishing, and looks like I need to drop to significantly lower grit to remove the scratches.

This stone and synth prep for polishing? Never again;-)

Stone:


Knife:

 

[Bico Doce]

Last post on this, since it's not exactly on-topic. The knife was virtually scratchless beforehand. I very carefully flattened the stone, and beveled edges. Everything was cleaned before and after, including flattening plate, to insure no cross contamination. And ... yuck! I am not a great photographer, so the photo only shows scratches in one spot (where light is reflecting), but they are everywhere. I noticed them immediately, even with a very light touch. This stone might be a nice mix of grits for a toothy edge, but for polishing work, it's a mess. I spent time re-finishing, and looks like I need to drop to significantly lower grit to remove the scratches.

This stone and synth prep for polishing? Never again;-)

Stone:
View attachment 383314

Knife:
View attachment 383315

There's a term used when the cladding gets what appears to be a scratch from out of nowhere called "pulling iron". Tbh I dont know why it happens but it has happened to me when using higher grit synthetics, like 3k+. I wonder if that is happening. Why it happens, I need someone more knowledgeable to chime in. Maybe the stone is too grabby for the soft steel and it "pulls" a little piece of it out and causes the scratch as it drags (complete speculation)?

 

[tri.ngm]

There's a term used when the cladding gets what appears to be a scratch from out of nowhere called "pulling iron". Tbh I dont know why it happens but it has happened to me when using higher grit synthetics, like 3k+. I wonder if that is happening. Why it happens, I need someone more knowledgeable to chime in. Maybe the stone is too grabby for the soft steel and it "pulls" a little piece of it out and causes the scratch as it drags (complete speculation)?

I have experienced it quite a lot of time myself, even with really fine JNAT.
Maybe this is not the right answer but I suspect that it's because the stone is too abrasive and I don't raise enough mud.

 

[noj]

There's a term used when the cladding gets what appears to be a scratch from out of nowhere called "pulling iron". Tbh I dont know why it happens but it has happened to me when using higher grit synthetics, like 3k+. I wonder if that is happening. Why it happens, I need someone more knowledgeable to chime in. Maybe the stone is too grabby for the soft steel and it "pulls" a little piece of it out and causes the scratch as it drags (complete speculation)?

That was why I started with just gentile pressure and a few strokes. In fact, so few strokes that I barely moved the blade lengthwise before I picked it up to look. If it was pulling iron I would have expected (and willing to be wrong) that I would see a very few initial scratches, and not scratches everywhere in a short time.

 

[tri.ngm]

One tip I remember from watching Milan is that when you hear something, wash the stone and your hands immediately.

 

[Bico Doce]

That was why I started with just gentile pressure and a few strokes. In fact, so few strokes that I barely moved the blade lengthwise before I picked it up to look. If it was pulling iron I would have expected (and willing to be wrong) that I would see a very few initial scratches, and not scratches everywhere in a short time.

That makes sense and sounds pretty frustrating. I guess it's just a crap stone for polishing?? fwiw I like the shapton pro 5k for cleaning the core steel, I usually dont go above 3k synthetics for cladding. After this I will go to my first natural.

 

[noj]

That makes sense and sounds pretty frustrating. I guess it's just a crap stone for polishing?? fwiw I like the shapton pro 5k for cleaning the core steel, I usually dont go above 3k synthetics for cladding. After this I will go to my first natural.

Interesting, I have seen quite a few suggestions to go to 5-6k synth (vs 3k). I had it all nice and purrdy with a 3k Chocera, and didn't have anything else in that range, so thought I would try it. Even if the stone isn't inherently evil, I will look for something else for this purpose;-)

On, and @tri-ngm, the assault was silent, so far as I could tell, but thanks;-)

 

[Bico Doce]

Interesting, I have seen quite a few suggestions to go to 5-6k synth (vs 3k). I had it all nice and purrdy with a 3k Chocera, and didn't have anything else in that range, so thought I would try it. Even if the stone isn't inherently evil, I will look for something else for this purpose;-)

On, and @tri-ngm, the assault was silent, so far as I could tell, but thanks;-)

That was a milan tip I've followed and it hasnt steered me wrong. I really like the chosera 3k as well, scratch pattern seems finer and shallower than other 3k's. I think if you got it looking good there then i would just make the jump to naturals assuming you got something of a coarser/softer pre-finisher lined up

 

[noj]

That was a milan tip I've followed and it hasnt steered me wrong. I really like the chosera 3k as well, scratch pattern seems finer and shallower than other 3k's. I think if you got it looking good there then i would just make the jump to naturals assuming you got something of a coarser/softer pre-finisher lined up

I have a Shobudani Tomae and Maruoyama Shiro Suita. Both give me good and easy results after 3k. In fact, that what I had before I had the notion of trying that dang stone;-)