Specific Gravity of Whetstones

Kitchen Knife Forums

Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

cotedupy

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2020
Messages
3,977
Reaction score
10,313
Location
London
[Copied below a couple of posts I made on B&B recently. It's probably talked about more there than it is here, but here's a run down anyway...]


This is something I find myself explaining or pointing out to people quite a lot, and I'm going to write it out in case it's helpful for anyone, and so that next time I can send a link.

---

Specific gravity is a measure of density. It is not a measure of hardness, and it is not a measure of fineness.

The confusion arises because for the stones that it's most often talked about in relation to - Arkansas novaculites - specific gravity does correlate with both both hardness and fineness. However this is not necessarily true for other types of stone, and you cannot compare specific gravities across types of stone and try to draw meaningful conclusions.

A slate might have an SG around 2.80. Is it a harder and finer stone than a translucent Ark at 2.64? No. A coticule might come in at 3.00. Ditto. You can't even use it to compare two different novaculites; a Charnley has an SG around 2.70, and is again is a softer and coarser stone than a trans or black Ark. To look at the specific gravity of something and try to infer characteristics from it, you need to know about both the chemical composition and structure of what you're looking at.

And even when comparing stones of the same type SG does not necessarily have a +ve correlation with fineness. For Idwals and Charnleys; the finer stones tend to have lower specific gravities, closer to that of silica at 2.65. They are purer novaculites than examples with higher SGs. Looking at slates, Thuringians, &c. SG is all over the place, it doesn't correlate positively or negatively with the fineness of the grit (ime), or the hardness of the stone, seemingly random. It's a product of the composition of initial deposits, and how metamorphic change has affected them, and that's a very complicated equation indeed.

SG is however a useful measurement when trying to determine the identity of an unknown stone. If you have a very fine green-grey hone with an SG of 2.55 - it is not a Thuri, but it could be an Asagi &c. &c.

---

That's all really. It's an easy trap to fall into given that traditionally SG is (legitimately) used to look at the fineness of Arkansas stones. But be clear that this equivalence does not always hold for other things.
 
Last edited:
[And here's how to measure SG using the water displacement method, which is both the easiest and most accurate way of doing it. Screenshots from a message I sent to another member a while back.]


Screenshot 2022-06-04 155645.png

Screenshot 2022-06-04 155719.png

Screenshot 2022-06-04 155755.png

Screenshot 2022-06-04 155827.png

Screenshot 2022-06-04 155908.png
 
Here are some numbers / scales that might be helpful, though NB - none of these are going to be completely foolproof. Actually using a stone is always going to tell you more about it than measuring its density.

---

As mentioned above, Arkansas Novaculites are the types of stone where specific gravity might tell us most accurately how a stone will perform, or how to classify it. Many of these stones are porous, if a stone still has a lot of oil in it, or isn't completely dry, then your SG measurement will be a little higher than true SG.

Old Pike-Norton type Washitas: 2.00 - 2.50
Modern Washitas: 2.00 - 2.25
Soft Arkansas: 2.25 - 2.50
Hard Arkansas: 2.50 - 2.60
Translucent / Surgical Black: 2.60 - 2.65

(Surgical Black Arks can actually tip over 2.65 which is the SG of Silica. They are not as pure as Translucents, so other stuff in them can increase the SG slightly).

---

Jnats compromise a few different types of stones, and SG could not be compared across different types. The numbers below would apply to the most common sort, which are shales and mud/siltstones. This is the scale posted by @Grayswandir on another thread, originally from Greg at naturalwhetstones.com, and I've converted the slightly confusing units used into specific gravity by shifting the decimal place three stops.

FWIW - I’ve only measured the SG of one of my jnats ever and it came in at 2.63. So on the border of 4.5 and 5, which is pretty much exactly how I would’ve rated from use.

5+: >2.80
5: 2.65 - 2.80
4.5: 2.50 - 2.65
4: 2.35 - 2.50
3.5: 2.20 - 2.35
3.0: <2.35

---

Other types of stone. Here it starts getting a lot more tricky to start looking at SG in any meaningful way as a measure of hardness or fineness of a stone, though it can be useful in identifying things.

Charnley Forest stones tend to be around 2.70 - 2.73

Llyn Idwals usually (not always) a touch higher 2.74 - 2.76. Both Charnleys and Idwals seem to be finer when they have lower SGs.

Slates tend to have SGs between about 2.70 - 2.90. With most around the middle 2.80 - 2.85.

Coticules are typically 3.00+. Coticules with higher SGs are likely to be faster than less dense stones.

Most non-foliated sedimentary stones (Sandstones / Mudstones / Siltstones, e.g. Ohio Blue, Queer Creek, Hindostans, Tam O'Shanter, Dalmore Blue) are lower. 2.20 - 2.60 ish. Foliated sedimentary stones like Shales are usually at the high end of that range. Argillites can be higher still.

Turkish / Cretans are around 2.55 - 2.65
 
Last edited:
Great info and helpful write up. Thank you.

I’ve never handled a coticule before but Arks I know and they feel dense and heavy. A coticule at 3.00 has got to be another level of WOW!


It's because the abrasive in coticules is based on garnet rather than silica/quartz like pretty much every other natural whetstone in the world. And garnet is much heavier than silica. Cotis can be well above 3.0 too, that's probably their low end.

It demonstrates quite well why SG is not a measure of hardness or fineness; Cotis aren't particularly hard or compact stones, nor are they as fine as many other fine natural stones, they're just made out of heavier stuff.
 
On the semantics of 'hardness' and SG...

I also find it instructive to realise that for any well defined rock (e.g. Novaculite), the abrasives are the same hardness regardless of the specific density! For example, whether a Novaculite whetstone has a SG of 2.00 or 2.65, the primary abrasive is silica/quartz (mohs hardness around 7). Same with Coticules and their garnets...

Here's an idea... You could make the SG relative to the density of the primary abrasive!? That would tell you how much of the stone's volume is made up of lighter materials (e.g. porous voids or less dense binding agents).
 
You could make the SG relative to the density of the primary abrasive!? That would tell you how much of the stone's volume is made up of lighter materials (e.g. porous voids or less dense binding agents).

This is an interesting idea, but I'm not quite sure how practicable it would be. We're straying into territory that I don't know so much about, so don't take what I'm about to say as gospel...

The primary abrasive in almost all natural whetstones is silica, cos silica is everywhere. Silica is quite hard @ 7 mohs, but relative to how hard it is, it's not actually that heavy - lots of softer things are heavier than silica. A quick google tells me that Micas run about 2.5 to 4 Mohs, and have SGs of 2.75 - 3.2. So they're not going to abrade hard steel, but will pull the sg of a stone up considerably. Which is going to be why slates and schists have higher SGs than trans arks. And conversely other minerals in the same stone might be lighter or it might have an element of porosity / air gaps, as you say.

Without knowing the exact chemical composition and structural makeup of a particular stone then making SG relative to the primary abrasive isn't going to help, I don't think...(?)


any well defined rock (e.g. Novaculite)

Now's there's a big subject! ;)
 
Last edited:
This is an interesting idea, but I'm not quite sure how practicable it would be.

😂

Probably not very!??

The beauty of SG is that it is just a ratio - so changing the denominator just linearly changes the scale. The relative relationships are preserved. It might be mildly interesting for 'clean' stones like Novaculite, where silica probably is the densest material in the stone.

From your ranges above... Lets see....

Stone
SG (water 1 g/cm³)​
SG (silica 2.65 g/cm³)​
Old Pike-Norton type Washitas
2.00 - 2.50​
0.75 - 0.94​
Modern Washitas
2.00 - 2.25​
0.75 - 0.85​
Soft Arkansas
2.25 - 2.50​
0.85 - 0.94​
Hard Arkansas
2.50 - 2.60​
0.94 - 0.98​
Translucent / Surgical Black
2.60 - 2.65​
0.98 - 1.00​

Does it say anything more useful??? 🤷‍♀️ Not really... it is "yet another scale"....

What IS cool (and partially by design) is that the translucent & surgical blacks top out at the density of silica... cool huh?? They are the most 'novaculitey' novaculites.




any well defined rock (e.g. Novaculite)
Now's there's a big subject! ;)

😂

True that!!!

And a silly term!! What is a 'non-well-defined-rock' anyway? Geologists know what they are doing.

Without knowing the exact chemical composition of a particular stone then making SG relative to the primary abrasive isn't going to help, I don't think...(?)

Yeah great point... Unlike novaculites, sandstones, silt/clay/mud stones and slate/shale are more inclined to be full of additional minerals!!
 
Does it say anything more useful??? 🤷‍♀️ Not really... it is "yet another scale"....

Aye. Though you could make the scale more interesting by cross-referencing it against a stone's porosity...

There's a table in Griswold's 1890 paper with measurements of a few different types of Arkansas and Ouachita stones. The Ouachita quarries that produced what was regarded as the 'best quality' whetstones had typical examples that ran between 14 and 19% airspace by volume, with other Ouachita quarries producing stones of only 3.5 - 6 %.

And putting that together with your second column then we can work out (assuming I'm getting all these sums right?) that the stones regarded as the best quality in 1890 were those with SGs at 2.33 or below... Interesting, in a hopelessly geeky way! And happens to tie in quite nicely with my impressions of my very favourite old stones, all of which have had SGs in the range of 2.25 to 2.34.

This also obviously assumes that Washitas are pure novaculites / 100% Silica - like a sponge made out of a hard ark.
 
Not that I am claiming that a specific gravity (relative density) with silica as the reference is the "ducks nuts"... but it is intuitive in the sense that the scale reaches its maximum of one for a pure brick of silica. Not a semi-arbitrary number.... which coincidentally happens to be the density of silica 😲😉!

The other neat thing is that if you are willing to follow the sponge assumption:

This also obviously assumes that Washitas are pure novaculites / 100% Silica - like a sponge made out of a hard ark.

then the specific gravity relative to silica does make determining porosity easier! Under the sponge assumption, any smaller ratio (< 1.0) will indicate the proportion of airspace volume in the specimen.

So for volumes of 14% - 19%... In SG (water/unitary) I get:

(1 - 0.19) x 2.65 = 2.15
(1 - 0.14) x 2.65 = 2.28


SGs in the range of 2.25 to 2.34
assuming I'm getting all these sums right?

🤔😂

did I get them wrong??




Though you could make the scale more interesting by cross-referencing it against a stone's porosity

How do you measure porosity?? Dry the stone out in an oven; weigh it; dunk it in water, then weigh it again?? I imagine getting a specimen to fully saturate could be difficult. You might have to pull a vacuum on the sample while it is submerged...

It would be interesting to do (before it is clogged up with oil 😏)!
 
[And here's how to measure SG using the water displacement method, which is both the easiest and most accurate way of doing it. Screenshots from a message I sent to another member a while back.]


View attachment 184481
View attachment 184480
View attachment 184479
View attachment 184478
View attachment 184477
The metric system is the way to go and it is even used in labs in the USA. But we can arrive at the same place regardless of the system of used.
Just wanted to throw that out there for those that may have a scale that reads in a different system.
 
did I get them wrong??

Hypothetically speaking it is possible that I got the sums right, and you were incorrect. But if I were a betting man - I would say it's overwhelmingly more likely that you will have got them correct, and I just calculated something random and irrelevant.


How do you measure porosity?? Dry the stone out in an oven; weigh it; dunk it in water, then weigh it again?? I imagine getting a specimen to fully saturate could be difficult. You might have to pull a vacuum on the sample while it is submerged...

It would be interesting to do (before it is clogged up with oil 😏)!


Yep basically. I tried it before on some stones (and as you say they want to be as clean as possible), soaking them in water until they seems to stop taking on any weight. Took about a week. But I didn't get readings anything like as high as the 15 - 20% in Griswold. I think @Desert Rat tried it a while back too, and got results similar to mine.

I suspect you're right and you'd probably need to do alternating pressure and vaccuum to force all of the air out of the middle of a stone. Same way you stabilize wood, but using water instead of resin/cactus juice.
 
Last edited:
To fill the pores with water test methods I'm familiar with call for a soak time, others opening a vacuum sealed bag while submerged, still others agitated in a container while under vacuum. Surface dried, weight taken and then dried back and weighed again. No method is perfect and I doubt all pores get filled.

The variation in wiping the surface dry on a hard ark is greater than the stones absorption. I don't think it is really a valid repeatable number.

The absorption (porosity) is going to mirror the spg. With the arks being so pure and the maximum spg being a known number I think the spg already tells us the absorption.

With other stones I think the absorption could tell us something about the stones.

Here is one method for testing spg and absorption. Nothing about it is entertaining....
 
Back
Top