Preach Brother Gage. Preach!
Stamped Knives...
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Corradobrit1
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Preach Brother Gage. Preach!
Oh well then, case closed.
Even Xerxes makes stamped blades, so they're not all bad.
Not to derail my own thread but...
Speaking of Xerxes, I've seen a couple of blades of his pop up lately. I know he got hurt real bad and was unsure of his future. Do you or anyone else know if he's healed up and back to his craft? I sure hope.
Corradobrit1
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Yes, he's back in the workshop but his output hasn't returned to pre injury levels of output. Seems a few of these guys succumb at one time or another, but most get back in the saddle. It's a really physical occupation and one I know I couldn't hack. Even retirement isn't stopping some......
Yes, he's back in the workshop but his output hasn't returned to pre injury levels of output. Seems a few of these guys succumb at one time or another, but most get back in the saddle. It's a really physical occupation and one I know I couldn't hack. Even retirement isn't stopping some......
And damn hard to make a decent living at too no doubt.
Preach Brother Gage. Preach!
This is very true, how you get there is less important than the rest of it. The issue really comes with some methods being used for mass producing crap and not only in knives.
For example many prefer honyaki over mono knives made out of the same steel, there is no good reason for it outside of esthetics, but at least with Japanese makers because of higher failure rates of honyaki, cultural view on them and in general believes of higher mastery level needed to make them, makers tend to put more finishing work into them and as a consequence produce on average better knives than similar mono knives. So it is not that one method is better than the other, but that some methods tend to be associated with crappy materials and crappy finishing. Because of this, without having any other information buyers tend to incorrectly attribute quality to the production method. To know any better a buyer would have to do extensive research and that's hard. For example, Browning Hi Power used to have forged frames which failed with higher pressure ammo and cast frames were introduced and are superior. In general though if you just ask most will tell you that forged is better than cast when in reality it depends. Either process can produce superior parts when done correctly.
Jovidah
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I think Ashi Ginga is also stamped? Great knives for good prices.
What I always found funny is that stuff like Zwilling and Wüsthof, who go out of their way to contribute to this 'forged is better' myth are basically stamped knives.
What I always found funny is that stuff like Zwilling and Wüsthof, who go out of their way to contribute to this 'forged is better' myth are basically stamped knives.
I'm new to this, so could someone explain. Aren't some drop forged knives stamped out into their final shape? Also, I imagine all roll forged knives would need to be stamped to achieve their general shape as well. What exact process does this video refer to when Gage says "stamped knives"?
In this context, I think we are talking about stamped knives being: take a sheet of steel and stamp/laser cut out the shape, heat treat, finish grind. So there was no "forging" to get the blade to shape (even though the sheet steel is roll forged).
My only drawback to knives made this way is they tend to be thinner and lack distal taper. But that is personal preference as I like a bit more meat at the pinch. Nothing technically wrong with this type of blade.
It really comes does to the work done in the finish grind. Stamping or laser cutting is just another form of stock removal. It's not really that different than using a grinder and shaping down to a template.
My only drawback to knives made this way is they tend to be thinner and lack distal taper. But that is personal preference as I like a bit more meat at the pinch. Nothing technically wrong with this type of blade.
It really comes does to the work done in the finish grind. Stamping or laser cutting is just another form of stock removal. It's not really that different than using a grinder and shaping down to a template.
@esoo gave a good summary. Some forging processes can still rely on stamping out the final shape but in a lot of the small smith shops the rough blade shape is often cut with a large sheer.
As @Jovidah mentioned, German makers have been especially egregious in promoting the idea that forged knives are superior quality to stamped knives. One of their ways of doing this is to produce their forged knives at 58HRC vs their stamped knives at 56HRC. This contributes to that notion but really has no actual relevance. They could make either type at either hardness. It's shifty for sure.
But they're not alone, there's a lot of sources that repeat the "forged is superior" mantra. The idea being that the forging of the blade blank imparts desirable qualities to the metal. While it is debated, there may be some amount of truth to this but many agree it is negligible and probably was more relevant in the past. The truth is all blades are forged to some extent. Even stamped blades use forged and rolled metal. A lot of those desirable qualities are already imparted then before the stamping step.
The result of all this is a pervasive belief that stamped knives are inferior quality compared to forged knives. This results in a lot of folks overlooking them entirely and that's unfortunate. That's not to say that hand forging doesn't impart any peculiarities at all, just to say that it is probably slight and stamped knives shouldn't me dismissed out of hand.
Heat treating is where the real magic happens and where a smith who has mastered their craft can really separate their steel from others.
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In a way, this discussion hearkens back to the discussion of forged vs stock removal, where people assume forged it better. But at some point you need to remove metal to finish the blade so every blade is stock removal.
I've seen the argument that hand forging the blade makes it "stronger". I've seen the argument that which way you cut a blade out of a sheet of steel makes a difference. These may be true - I'm not smart enough to judge. But I would posit in our world - kitchen knives - it doesn't matter. In the a world where you push the blade to failure regularly in it's work, it may.
It comes does to what you as a user prefers to make you happy. You can pay for a Shigefusa that is "hand finished" or you could pay for a Bidinger that is done on belts. Both are exquisite knives in there own right and both will cut pretty damn well.
I've seen the argument that hand forging the blade makes it "stronger". I've seen the argument that which way you cut a blade out of a sheet of steel makes a difference. These may be true - I'm not smart enough to judge. But I would posit in our world - kitchen knives - it doesn't matter. In the a world where you push the blade to failure regularly in it's work, it may.
It comes does to what you as a user prefers to make you happy. You can pay for a Shigefusa that is "hand finished" or you could pay for a Bidinger that is done on belts. Both are exquisite knives in there own right and both will cut pretty damn well.
Jovidah
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I actually forgot the most obvious German example: Robert Herder. IMO the best larger volume knives from Germany, and they won't hide in the slightest that their blades are stamped.
Another good German example: Simon Herde. His recent series run is stamped, yet it's not what really comes to mind when you see the taper and the 4mm above the heel.
Another good German example: Simon Herde. His recent series run is stamped, yet it's not what really comes to mind when you see the taper and the 4mm above the heel.
Hand forging does not make a blade "stronger" if one started with quality material to begin with, so for any reasonable discussion outside of niche cases we can say it doesn't. Blades cut in the longitudinal vs transverse directions to the rolling can have significantly better toughness. It might still not mater for a particular applications, but there is definitely a sizeable difference in many cases especially with conventionally produced steels.
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/07/22/forged-vs-stock-removal-knives/https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/03/26/cru-forge-v-toughness-testing-processing-and-background/
Oh I was aware of those facts. I just wanted to pull two items as false/true to go along with the idea of stamped vs forged.
