Starting a Stone Setup - The usual suspects - Utility standpoint questions

Discussion in 'Sharpening Station' started by Claws, Feb 12, 2019.

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From a purely pragmatic perspective, what 1000 and 5000 range brand stone should I go for

  1. Naniwa Chosera

    23.1%
  2. Shapton Pro

    23.1%
  3. King Deluxe

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Suehiro Cerax and Rika

    30.8%
  5. Mixed - X for 1000, Y for 5000

    15.4%
  6. None of the above

    7.7%
  1. Feb 12, 2019 #1

    Claws

    Claws

    Claws

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    (For TL;DR scroll to the bottom. I know not everyone has the time and/or is in the mood to read my ramblings. I've used the search function, as I'm aware this type of question has been posed before, but am left somewhat nonplussed nonetheless. I apologize for grammatical mistakes and typos. English is my third language and as such, if anything I've written appears incoherent, I am not at all offended if, or rather I hope that, you'll point it out, so that I may elaborate on anything that appears unclear)

    I'll not pretend to have any idea about sharpening beyond the theoretical. I've done a lot of reading and I've got the Playlist from John of Japanese Knive Imports boomarked to rewatch.

    Because I don't want to ruin my Shirogami #2 or Aogami Super knives (all around 240mm, the Supers at 63 HRC + ) straight away, I've got two banged up old Zwilling (X50CrMoV15 steel) knives, as well as a VG10 petit to practice on - even if I scratch them to hell and back while losing half the blade height, that's alright.

    Preface: I do not mind soaking time at all. If it needs to take a bath for half an hour (or longer), rather than being splash and go, thats fine.

    After a lot of reading, I'm stuck with the usual suspects. King, Suehiro Rika / Cerax, Shapton and Naniwa Chosera (I can even get the big round chosera disks here, though I've read that they're closer to the old superstones rather than the new professionals) - this of course is a rather wide range, especially price wise.

    If I'm mainly looking for utility to euro ratio - utility meaning getting a sharp, tomato skin murdering (carbon steel) knife in a reasonable (doesn't have to be short) amount of time followed by some polishing for a nice finish (with aesthetics and comfort taking an overall backseat so to speak), would I be correct in assuming that the king 1000, which is also produced in a stupidly huge 80mm version, followed by any of the major players' 5000 - 6000 grid stones would do just fine?
    I am intersted in the stupidly huge king mostly because I assume that I'd probably still have quite a lot of stone left to use after I've retired (for reference: I am currently in my late 20s), so that I might hurl it at my grandchildren if they try to touch my Kiritsuke.

    For the go to 800-1000 range ("main sharpening") my candidates are currently


    • Cerax 1000 - 205 x 73 x 27 - 45€
    • King Deluxe 1000 - 230x 100 x !!80!! mm - 60€; But also exists 1/3 of height and slightly smaller overall for just over 20€
    • Chosera 800 or 1000 210 x 70 x 25 mm ~70€

    Is the "premium" (if we're just going by stone size. Though mind you I'm aware that they'll get worn down at differing speeds) of the Cerax or Chosera worth it over the King 1000 (if not, I'll grab the triple size and leave it at that)? Is the Cerax a huge step up over the king, in which case I'd be willing to spend the extra 20? If so, is the Chosera a huge step up over the Cerax, in which case I'd be willing to spend the extra 25?

    For the 5000 range ("Main polishing and upkeep") the main candidates are currently:


    • King 6000 210 mm x 73 mm x 22 mm at 44€
    • Rika 5000 205mm x 73mm x 23mm at 55€
    • Shapton 5000 210mm x 70mm x 15mm - 70€
    • Chosera 5000 210mm x 70mm x 25mm at 133€

    Same concept as above. I am absolutely willing to spend more cash, because I consider this a one time investment. I'm aware that collecting stones and sharpening on many different kinds of stones is a hobby one can "slip into" and enjoy. The people that do have my sincere respect and admiration for their craft, but I know that I'm not the kind of person that's prone to develop such a habit. For this reason, I wish to make a sound investment once, from a pragmatic perspective rather than a perfectionist one, and then never have to "look back with regret" so to speak.

    Note: For thinning and basic shaping, I'm pretty much set on a 320 / 400 Chosera or Cerax, because I've got really good deals lined up for at least one of them, which is why I'm not asking about that range.


    TL;DR: Me wants 1000 and 5000 stone. Me pragmatic person with patience. What I buy for not be sad later?
     
  2. Feb 12, 2019 #2

    Michi

    Michi

    Michi

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    If you don't mind soaking, the Cerax 1000 and Rika 5000 are cost effective and good quality. You won't regret it if you buy those, I'm sure. The others you listed are all stones with a good reputation, so I suspect that any two of those will be good.. (I haven't used the others, so I can't give you a comparison.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
    M1k3 likes this.
  3. Feb 12, 2019 #3

    vicv

    vicv

    vicv

    Well-Known Member

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    The Cerax is a great stone and you can get it in a bigger size than standard as well. I'd recommend a coarser stone in the 3-500 range instead of a finer stone for now though. You will not have the skill yet to really utilize a 5k stone but having a coarse stone will definitely help develop your skills. Something like a King 300 S&G, Cerax 320 Soaker, or Sigma 400 S&G are all excellent choices
     
  4. Feb 12, 2019 #4

    Walla

    Walla

    Walla

    Active Member

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    I don't have enough experience with different stones to really comment as to which would be better...it depends on steel type being sharpened and the individual doing the sharpening...all the stones listed have their supporters and detractors...a lot of it comes down to personal preference...ie. do you prefer muddy stones or harder stones...etc...
    As long as you stick to well known/popular stones you can't go to wrong in my opinion...

    Commenting on your English...please don't apologize for it...you do a better job of it than many who are native English speakers...


    Take care

    Jeff
     
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  5. Feb 12, 2019 #5

    Dhoff

    Dhoff

    Dhoff

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    Sorry to hijack thread. Do hard 3000-5000 Stones exist?
     
  6. Feb 12, 2019 #6

    vicv

    vicv

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    Sigma select II 3k and 6k, stones are hard, As are Shapton glass and pro, Chosera, others I'm sure I haven't tried as well
     
  7. Feb 12, 2019 #7

    F-Flash

    F-Flash

    F-Flash

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    Get king hyper 1k

    And chosera 3k (more like 4k)
     
  8. Feb 12, 2019 #8

    HRC_64

    HRC_64

    HRC_64

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    The chosera 3k is just about perfect, but its expensive.
     
  9. Feb 12, 2019 #9

    Ivang

    Ivang

    Ivang

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    My work set up is a shapton glass 500 and a pro 2k. They do everything i need for a pro setting. They cut anything, fast, and they are very low maintenance. The edge is more than enough for my needs.

    At home my preferred progression is cerax 320, choseras 800 and 3k. That is as high as i go on synths. Anything higher im more likely than not going natural, though i seldom feel the need to.

    Both combos are great, the choseras feel nicer, but the shaptons are just as convenient as they come. size, speed, hardness, cutting ability, wear resistance, maintenance, required care, they are as good as they get for my needs on a pro setting.

    The choseras are a more pleasant to use, finer, alternative. They require more care, and are slightly slower on some steels. I steel use them over the shaptons if time is not a factor, but most often than not it is.
     
  10. Feb 12, 2019 #10

    milkbaby

    milkbaby

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    I'm not a sharpening nut, so I'll let others make suggestions on specific stones. I do think that if your main goal is to sharpen Shirogami and Aogami knives, technique and practice plays a more important role in getting your knives sharp than the specific differences between stones. If you know what you're doing, you can get a useable kitchen knife edge off a $5 sharpening stone from the Asian market. That is the beauty of these relatively simple carbon steels: they are usually quite simple to sharpen.

    So I say don't be afraid to sharpen your carbon steel knives. It is usually easier for a novice to get simple carbon steel sharp whereas stainless steel can sometimes be more difficult. Use the Sharpie or marker trick to see where you are removing material when sharpening, practice, and you'll be a decent sharpener and better than at least 99.999% of the rest of the world.
     
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  11. Feb 12, 2019 #11

    esoo

    esoo

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    Personally I'd avoid the Shapton Pro 5000. It sharpens well, but I find very hard and it has near zero feedback so I don't like using it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2019
  12. Feb 12, 2019 #12

    Xenif

    Xenif

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    Couple of thoughts, what are you going to use to keep everything flat? (stones need to be flattened every so often). ATOMA Diamond plate is the most recommended here.
    The King is thick but also soft, I used up 10mm in a few months doing friends and family old Germans knives and practice kasumi on my wide bevels carbons.
    Shapton Pro 2k is one of my fav stones, I use it for most of my stainless/semi stainless. Rika would be a good stone to follow. I personally dislike the King 6k for edges, thou it polishes ok.
    As a home user I do take my carbons up higher, mostly on Jnats.
     
  13. Feb 12, 2019 #13

    podzap

    podzap

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    I consider myself a very pragmatic person and, like you, I recently decided to put together my "permanent set".

    This is what I have now, and I really do not forsee that I will want or need anything else:

    * Naniwa Professional 400 (for sharpening my German steel)
    * Naniwa Professional 1000 (for my Japanese and French steel)
    * Naniwa Professional 3000 (for my Japanese steel)
    * Atoma Diamond 400 (for flattening the Naniwas, blade repair and sharpening chisels)
    * Atoma Diamond 1200 (for stainless steel blades)

    I think that pretty much fulfills my needs permanently.
     
  14. Feb 12, 2019 #14

    vicv

    vicv

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    I've settled on two stones with my water stone setup. King 300 and sigma select 2 3k. That's all I use now. The soft stainless is finished on the king. Carbon and Japanese stainless also gets the 3k. A few passes on the strop just because I like the feel of it and done. Can't get more simple and effective than that.
     
  15. Feb 12, 2019 #15

    esoo

    esoo

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    Slight threadjack, but does the Glass sit in the top of the pro case or do you use another stand? Wanted to try a Shapton Glass, and I've got a few of the Pro.
     
  16. Feb 12, 2019 #16

    Ivang

    Ivang

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    It sits on top of the box just fine, and they both fit inside of the box as well, so its aa compact a full set as you can get.
     
  17. Feb 12, 2019 #17

    K813zra

    K813zra

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    I like Suehiro stones in general. My favorite stones from Suehiro come from three lines. Cerax 320, Debado 1k and Rika 5k. But there are other stones I like as well.

    Shapton stones work well, are fairly priced, easy to get and are convenient to use.
     
  18. Feb 13, 2019 #18

    galvaude

    galvaude

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    I too use the Glass 500 with the pro 2000 and it is an awesome combo.
    Throw a 220 there and you have a great set up. I love using the glass 500 as if was a 1000.
     

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