Stone advice

[ChrisCrat]

Hi,

I currently have a shapton 1000, BBW and Coticule which i use for all my sharpening.
I think I may benefit from a stone in the 3k region to use between teh shapton and the BBW.

What are your thoughts on this and which stone would you recommend? Naniwa Pro 3000? Shapton Glass 3000? Others?

Thanks!

 

[Benuser]

Considered the Naniwa Pro 2k? It starts like a 2k, but leaves a >3k end result.
After that, I would use the Belgian Blue only for very light edge leading stropping and deburring.

 

[ChrisCrat]

Considered the Naniwa Pro 2k? It starts like a 2k, but leaves a >3k end result.
After that, I would use the Belgian Blue only for very light edge leading stropping and deburring.

Top, bedankt.
I’ll look at that one. You wouldn’t finish on the coticule?

 

[Benuser]

About the 2 and 3k:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/chosera-2k-and-naniwa-pro-2k-compared.52368/

 

[KingShapton]

Top, bedankt.
I’ll look at that one. You wouldn’t finish on the coticule?

This ultimately depends on a few things and is difficult to generalize about.


The steel used for the respective knife,

the intended use of the respective knife,

your preferred cutting technique (pushcut vs pullcut),

your own preferences, some (me too) prefer edges with lots of bite, others prefer very finely polished edges that "ghost through" food, others prefer a mixture of both....

As you can see, there are various and personal factors involved, plus some Coticules are better suited to kitchen knives than others. And only you can estimate how well yours is suitable...

Maybe you should just experiment with different finishes (toothy vs polish) and find out what you prefer... The proposed Naniwa Pro 2000 could be a good starting point.

 

[Benuser]

Top, bedankt.
I’ll look at that one. You wouldn’t finish on the coticule?

In my little experience the Coticule has a huge reach. My soft one from 800 to 8k, at least. It gets refined every time you add a bit of water. Its starts as a thick, abrasive slurry. So, it certainly doesn't start as a high grit stone. The nature of its particles makes it a great polisher, but for kitchen use the edge is likely to miss the necessary bite. It does offer a smooth shave, though.
Apart from the bite question, I'm not sure what a high grit may add with a double‐bevelled blade used in Western cuisine. I prefer not to polish out the entire scratch pattern of a previous stone. My major purpose in using fine stones is in achieving a better deburring. And for maintenance, not having to go unnecessary through a full progression and wasting material when a few strokes on a fine stone may do the job.
Depending on the steel, a NP2k or NP2k + BB is really all you need.

 

[cotedupy]

Personally I would get a stone below 1k given what you have already. But if you want something rolling at around 3k then there’s surely no looking past the mighty Ouka. (Thank me later )

 

[ChrisCrat]

In my little experience the Coticule has a huge reach. My soft one from 800 to 8k, at least. It gets refined every time you add a bit of water. Its starts as a thick, abrasive slurry. So, it certainly doesn't start as a high grit stone. The nature of its particles makes it a great polisher, but for kitchen use the edge is likely to miss the necessary bite. It does offer a smooth shave, though.
Apart from the bite question, I'm not sure what a high grit may add with a double‐bevelled blade used in Western cuisine. I prefer not to polish out the entire scratch pattern of a previous stone. My major purpose in using fine stones is in achieving a better deburring. And for maintenance, not having to go unnecessary through a full progression and wasting material when a few strokes on a fine stone may do the job.
Depending on the steel, a NP2k or NP2k + BB is really all you need.

The 'bite' is an aspect I'll have to figure out and had not thought of before; I had assumed a finer stone is a finer (sharper) edge.
I have 2 (white) single bevel knives knives too, so its not all double bevel work.

I forgot to mention my Atoma 400 which I mainly use to flatten, but can also double as a coarser stone if needed. That suehiro ouka looks like a nice contender as well. It seems quite cheap compared to some others?

Thanks for the info!

 

[cotedupy]

That suehiro ouka looks like a nice contender as well. It seems quite cheap compared to some others?

Which is doubly surprising when you consider it’s the single most ineffably perfect and utterly complete waterstone of any grit ever produced by any company ever!

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/a-paean-to-the-cerax-ouka-3k.54440/

 

[M1k3]

Glass 3k or 4k. Gesshin 4k.

 

[Benuser]

I would in no circumstances use any Atoma close to the edge. It's great for your stones, but leaves deep grooves into steel. For thinning behind the edge there are a lot of other, better and cheaper options.

 

[spaceconvoy]

Which is doubly surprising when you consider it’s the single most ineffably perfect and utterly complete waterstone of any grit ever produced by any company ever!

It isn't splash and go... disqualified!

 

[KingShapton]

It isn't splash and go... disqualified!

Splash&go has its advantages and is convenient to use.... but is that a reason to exclude all soakers???

That rules out a lot of really good stones...

 

[spaceconvoy]

is that a reason to exclude all soakers???

Yes. Soaking stones are unhygienic, they bring nothing but misery and disease. I live in Florida so I don't need any more stagnant pools of water, especially in my own home. And don't even say "toilet tank" because around here they're either full of bleach tablets or mildew.

Wait, this isn't Unpopular Opinions... dang, I keep doing that.

Trying to get back on topic, @ChrisCrat what role do you envision using the 3k for? Do you want it for sharpening when the edge just needs a touch up and don't want to go all the way down to 1k? Refinement / prepolishing for tight progression all the way up to your coticule? Or an alternative lower mid grit finisher for toothier edges?

 

[ChrisCrat]

Trying to get back on topic, @ChrisCrat what role do you envision using the 3k for? Do you want it for sharpening when the edge just needs a touch up and don't want to go all the way down to 1k? Refinement / prepolishing for tight progression all the way up to your coticule? Or an alternative lower mid grit finisher for toothier edges?

I keep my knives in pretty good shape and don't feel the need to go much coarser than my 1000 stone. I even did this flat spot removal with my 1000,

As the next stone down is the much finer bbw I thought something around the 3k would be an appropriate step in my general sharpening line-up. It could be used when the edge just needs a touch or as a step in between the 1k and bbw. An in-between stone both for sharpening and polishing.

 

[Pie]

If polishing is involved.. Naniwa pro 3k can do you some favours. Maybe not as good as some soakers, but it leaves core almost mirror and the cladding a light haze. It’s capable, but a bit too high grit as prep. Very useful on the way to full mirror.

 

[cotedupy]

Yes. Soaking stones are unhygienic, they bring nothing but misery and disease. I live in Florida so I don't need any more stagnant pools of water, especially in my own home. And don't even say "toilet tank" because around here they're either full of bleach tablets or mildew.

Wait, this isn't Unpopular Opinions... dang, I keep doing that.

Trying to get back on topic, @ChrisCrat what role do you envision using the 3k for? Do you want it for sharpening when the edge just needs a touch up and don't want to go all the way down to 1k? Refinement / prepolishing for tight progression all the way up to your coticule? Or an alternative lower mid grit finisher for toothier edges?

Presumably attracts the 'gators' in too...? Soaking stones sound like dangerous things indeed down your way!

 

[spaceconvoy]

Presumably attracts the 'gators' in too...? They sound like dangerous things indeed down your way!

It can... I think y'all have something similar you call 'drop lizards' in your country? But the real danger here is providing a food source for swarms of antivax retirees, rainbow people on meth, and former disney cast members carrying super-gonorrhea

For the OP, your BBW must be finer than mine was. I thought it made a good stone to jump to straight from 1k for a semi-refined combo edge. Though I've only owned the similar higher grit Rika, it sounds like the Ouka would be a good bet for your purposes.

 

[cotedupy]

But the real danger here is providing a food source for swarms of antivax retirees, rainbow people on meth, and former disney cast members carrying super-gonorrhea

Ha, excellent! This had me tears. And reminded me of something... do you know a writer called Carl Hiaasen? If not - definitely worth looking out.

(I promise I'll stop derailing your thread after this Chris!)

 

[ModRQC]

Ouka doesn't need that long a soak to work well. Would never perma mine - don't like the getting softer part with this one when sharpening.

If soaker is a no go I like SP2K here as well as other suggestions made. Always thought it worked particularly well after the 1K. It's like a reverse Ouka: S&G, works to refined edges, always felt like some "2500" to me. Ouka is fast and relatively coarse for grits to start, and also works to 2500 to me there. Mud breakdown however allows a good range of refinement and is pretty much a given in little time, and a toothy edge alright.

YMMV but I love both.

 

[Luftmensch]

I think y'all have something similar you call 'drop lizards' in your country?

You're thinking of the drop bears mate... they'll maul your bloody face off! More dangerous than the spear nosed bilby, the land shark and an overflowing dunny, combined!

the real danger here is providing a food source for swarms of antivax retirees, rainbow people on meth, and former disney cast members carrying super-gonorrhea

That sounds truly horrific... Our dangers down here are manageable... you know??

 

[Luftmensch]

I forgot to mention my Atoma 400 which I mainly use to flatten, but can also double as a coarser stone if needed.

I strongly agree with @Benuser... it will leave deep scratches... and the steel will reduce the keenness of the plate for flattening

I even did this flat spot removal with my 1000

This is where I strongly agree with @cotedupy. I reckon a 400 grit would likely be a more useful complement to your line up. However, since you want to polish... a 2-4K could add value. The major brands are all decent choices if you just want a stone 'that works' (as opposed to obsessing over minor detail in their qualities). Since you have Shapton, you might want to stay in the Shapton family to have a predictable progression? There is no problem mixing and matching, you'll just have to anticipate that the grit jumps might be smaller or larger than what the labels suggest.

 

[cotedupy]

Ouka doesn't need that long a soak to work well. Would never perma mine - don't like the getting softer part with this one when sharpening

Interesting! I do permasoak mine, but more out of convenience, as I soak other stones and then have everything ready to go. Though certainly agree that it doesn't need a long soak in the way that Kings do - in fact I find it basically identical when permasoaked compared to 10 mins, rather than being noticeably softer.

(Though that impression is from a fair while back, when I was very new to sharpening. Maybe I'd notice more of a difference now).

 

[daveb]

Yes. Soaking stones are unhygienic, they bring nothing but misery and disease. I live in Florida so I don't need any more stagnant pools of water, especially in my own home. And don't even say "toilet tank" because around here they're either full of bleach tablets or mildew.

Toilet Tank, Toilet Tank, Toilet Tank, all day long the Toilet Tank. Don't do like I did though and move, leaving 3 Gesshins in the tank.

The gators help keep the water moccasins in check.

Another fan of the SP2000 to follow the SP1000. It just works a treat.

 

[ModRQC]

Interesting! I do permasoak mine, but more out of convenience, as I soak other stones and then have everything ready to go. Though certainly agree that it doesn't need a long soak in the way that Kings do - in fact I find it basically identical when permasoaked compared to 10 mins, rather than being noticeably softer.

(Though that impression is from a fair while back, when I was very new to sharpening. Maybe I'd notice more of a difference now).

I could also be wrong. I never truly permasoaked it but I did use all Cerax I tried a good while with rather short soaks and experimenting longer soaks and eventually permasoaking a couple. Convergence of things leading me to say: Cerax 700 and 320 get softer when perma there’s no way about it although it shows more prominently when polishing; Rika feels much harder from a regular soak than experiments going up to 3 hours; and a 1.5mm thin Ouka when I got distracted by other things had a near 2 hours soak before sharpening with it and it was softer and muddier and while in no way displeasing, it’s just not the mark to what I came to expect out of it for more than a year of use with at 10-20 minutes soaks.

Many a thing could be playing me wrong there. Stones are so much impressions on our very personal and different paths of use… or steels and whatever else. It took a while before I started to distinguish stones for more specific uses or steels or clads as well.

 

[ModRQC]

Another fan of the SP2000 to follow the SP1000. It just works a treat.

In polishing I'm a fan of SG500 to SP2K as well. It's not for everything but these two on cheaper SS core/clads work for me on a getting rid of usual media blasted finish there and have a working finish, but then again, when things get serious with wanting a well polished core, I just need to add Kitayama 8K to get close enough to mirror. The beautiful thing is how clean a pre-mirror SG500 gives, how SP2K just darkens the clad and hazes the core quite clearly, and then it's a treat to just look and follow along with the Kitayama as it cleans that once again. Satisfying, if requiring some labor.

Didn't like the sticky half-mirror polish of Kitayama on cladding (oh the contrast/clad line is fabulous though mind you), so enters a drop to Arashiyama 1K or Imanishi 1200 with "shinogi pressure" to lightly repaint the bevels. Stones of choice for a delicate activity like that: fast polishers, conform to most shape, super tactile feedback lets you know, and even just of themselves leave a nice kasumi like clad to a clean, well-contrasted core. With care they can work splendid for a jump down not messing up the core much.

Recently found Cerax 1K isn't a bad contender to these two as well - somewhat different, but the good things stay and not a bad contender at all. More dangerous to the mirror polished core though. Too agressive... its everlasting fault to being an almost perfect yet absurdly fast loading stone. Also needs a real good soak to show its best polishing behavior while Arashiyama 1K/Imanishi 1200 are almost S&G there although I always gave them a 3-5 minutes soak - I might go 10 for luck in real serious endeavors - or at least a good long rinse under running water and a bit of careful rub-and-splash foreplay with the blade when I'm in for a quickie.

Hmmmmm... it's getting out of hand there.

 

[cotedupy]

I could also be wrong. I never truly permasoaked it but I did use all Cerax I tried a good while with rather short soaks and experimenting longer soaks and eventually permasoaking a couple. Convergence of things leading me to say: Cerax 700 and 320 get softer when perma there’s no way about it although it shows more prominently when polishing; Rika feels much harder from a regular soak than experiments going up to 3 hours; and a 1.5mm thin Ouka when I got distracted by other things had a near 2 hours soak before sharpening with it and it was softer and muddier and while in no way displeasing, it’s just not the mark to what I came to expect out of it for more than a year of use with at 10-20 minutes soaks.

Many a thing could be playing me wrong there. Stones are so much impressions on our very personal and different paths of use… or steels and whatever else. It took a while before I started to distinguish stones for more specific uses or steels or clads as well.

Ah good to know... all of those Ceraxes (320, 700, Rika/5k) have tempted me in the past, and may well do in the future. Especially if I can make the 700 and Rika nice and soft by having them in the bucket.

Something people probably already knew, but that I hadn't clocked before OP sent me a link earlier is the difference between the Cerax 3k and Ouka appears to be that the Cerax comes glued onto its little bit of plastic to form a holder, whereas the Ouka doesn't. Here's that link to a site that sells both: Suehiro - Cerax - Debado

An extra 7 quid there for the holder that I ripped off and threw away when I got mine! Both do though come with the entirely superfluous rubbing stone thing .

 

[branwell]

I currently have a shapton 1000, BBW and Coticule which i use for all my sharpening.
I think I may benefit from a stone in the 3k region to use between teh shapton and the BBW.

What are your thoughts on this and which stone would you recommend? Naniwa Pro 3000? Shapton Glass 3000? Others?

IMO the problem with the BBW is its a razor stone, i.e. it leaves a keen but very smooth edge so unless you are dealing with raw fish, it on its own is not a great kitchen knife edge. However, it can be used in creating a hybrid edge so I tried it tonight on AS and AEBL.

I tried it with the following stones.

Chosera 800
Shapton Kuromaku, 1K, 1.5k, 2K.
Naniwa Pro 2K
Ouka 3K

The BBW is a bite killer so while I've used stones like the Ouka / King 8K combo to make really super keen edges with good bite, the Ouka / BBW combo is kinda meh. Decently keen, but it killed the Oukas bite.

Dropping to the Shapton 1K. While its got decent bite on its own, no surprise, its more like an 800 grit stone, its not that keen and the BBW struggled to get enough keenness out of it before killing the bite to be a good combo.

And so in various ways all the other stones fell into meh land with the BBW except the Chosera 800, which is more like a 1200 or 1500. For some reason it produced a reasonably decent hybrid edge with the BBW.

All that said, its was a good edge, but not a great edge.

So I got out the silver bullet and fixed it. Got out an Aoto and made some BBW / Aoto slurry.

The Chosera 800 followed by edge trailing stropping on the BBW with Aoto slurry produced a seriously keen edge with awesome bite.

If slurry blending isn't your thing, taking the BBW out of the mix altogether might be a better way to go.

The Shapton Kuromaku 2K, Naniwa Pro 2K and Ouka 3K, stropped on 3 micron diamonds all produce edges I think are pretty awesome for non raw fish work.

If you don't like stropping on diamonds but want something keener than a 2K or 3K, the Shapton Glass 4K** and King 4K both produce a really nice blend of keenness with bite.

6K and up you are getting into pretty dodgy territory bite wise. You tend to get edges that are blisteringly keen but it doesn't take them long before they are gliding on tomato skins rather than cutting them.

As to the Naniwa Pro 3K you mention. If it's anything like the Chosera 3K, to me its not got enough bite to make the cut, pardon the pun.

And the Glass 3K**? Maybe.

**Shapton edges have decent bite at their grit ranges but with the exception of the Glass 2K, the 1K and up Glass stones have a very distinctive feel that is a little love it or hate it so if you don't have a Glass stone already, you might want to borrow one before investing in them.

 

[gaijin]

@branwell - can you tell more of your diamond stropping? Is it a spray/paste onto a base or something else? And what base? I've looked at leather and balsa wood.

 

[KingShapton]

@branwell - can you tell more of your diamond stropping? Is it a spray/paste onto a base or something else? And what base? I've looked at leather and balsa wood.

In this case, the search function is your friend... but I'll give you some help...

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/2k-3-micron-stropped-edge.57457/