Stone ID?

[Delat]

I have a couple stones that I bought circa 2000 from Japan Woodworker for my handplanes. They’d been gathering dust for ages when I decided to try my hand at knife sharpening. They were completely ineffective on my VG10 Shun, so I set them aside and got some Shaptons instead.

I’ve been wondering recently if they might be good for low-alloy steels, but I can’t for the life of me remember what grit they are. I suspect they’re in the 4k -8k range. The beige one is a King of some sort and is a soaker, but the yellow one has no markings and I vaguely recall it’s supposed to be a splash and go. Or I might have that reversed - at least one is a soaker and one is S&G (I think).

The yellow one has a very soft feel and makes a lot of mud, the beige one is pretty hard with very little mud. I believe prep with a nagura was recommended for both by Japan Woodworker. The yellow one looks very like a Kitayama 8k I saw in a video.

I don’t have a cheap beater low-alloy practice knife so I was hoping someone might recognize them before I try them out on a good knife. I flattened both a bit to get the fresh color, so the King has a wet spot in the photo.

 

[branwell]

The King looks very much like the 6K. There is an 8K that comes on a base but its a little different in color.

Am not recognizing the other stone.

 

[cotedupy]

Also looks exactly like this old 4k king that would have been bought around the same time (the 4k, 6k and 8k can all come either mounted or not I believe):

Or maybe it’s a Nakayama Tomae :

 

[Delat]

It does look like that 4k King. That would make the yellow one either 8k or 12k probably, given I wanted mirror polished plane irons.

So is the 4k King of that vintage of any value on carbon steels vs an SG4000? Whatever it uses for abrasives didn’t have much effect on VG10 (nor my newfangled A2 plane irons at the time).

I do love the feel of the yellow one so maybe I’ll just try it on one of my AS knives.

 

[Hanmak17]

I'm willing to bet the yellow stone is an older Imanishi/Bester 4000. Muddiest stone I've ever used, for not much return.

 

[KingShapton]

The King could be either a 4k or the 6k, they are pretty similar visually. It's definitely one of the two.

Considering the fact that you got it from a Japanese woodworker for your hand planes then I would guess a 6k.

I'm just very puzzled that the stone failed at VG-10, what stone did you use before?

In my experience the King 6k works much better when it's permasoaked, maybe give that a try?!

Otherwise I would only use the King 6k for kitchen knives for hybrid edges according to Murray Carter, which works very well. @branwell made a good thread about it here in the forum.

 

[Delat]

The King could be either a 4k or the 6k, they are pretty similar visually. It's definitely one of the two.

Considering the fact that you got it from a Japanese woodworker for your hand planes then I would guess a 6k.

I'm just very puzzled that the stone failed at VG-10, what stone did you use before?

In my experience the King 6k works much better when it's permasoaked, maybe give that a try?!

I got another lower grit stone at the same time as the two pictured; the texture feels like it’s in the 800-1k range. I seem to recall it being marketed as some kind of hybrid; when dunked in water big bubbles come streaming out, and it feels quite tough.

I used these three for my very first attempts at hand sharpening so I had no idea what I was doing. But I remember scrubbing my knife on them for a solid 10-20 minutes with plenty of pressure but no burr. Also inspecting the edge after the King and yellow stone it didn’t look to be getting smoothed/polished.

I thought it was me, but when I got my Shaptons I raised in burr in just 1-2 minutes so I decided it was the stones. So I thought maybe stones from that era didn’t all have abrasives for high alloy steels. But based on your comments and being a bit wiser now, maybe I’ll dig up my Shun and give it another try.

I also remember lots and lots of scrubbing with my Lie Nielsen A2 irons on those stones and not getting the mirror polish I got on my other irons. That’s when I said screw this handplane stuff and got an 8” jointer

 

[KingShapton]

I got another lower grit stone at the same time as the two pictured; the texture feels like it’s in the 800-1k range. I seem to recall it being marketed as some kind of hybrid; when dunked in water big bubbles come streaming out, and it feels quite tough.

I used these three for my very first attempts at hand sharpening so I had no idea what I was doing. But I remember scrubbing my knife on them for a solid 10-20 minutes with plenty of pressure but no burr. Also inspecting the edge after the King and yellow stone it didn’t look to be getting smoothed/polished.

I thought it was me, but when I got my Shaptons I raised in burr in just 1-2 minutes so I decided it was the stones. So I thought maybe stones from that era didn’t all have abrasives for high alloy steels. But based on your comments and being a bit wiser now, maybe I’ll dig up my Shun and give it another try.

I also remember lots and lots of scrubbing with my Lie Nielsen A2 irons on those stones and not getting the mirror polish I got on my other irons. That’s when I said screw this handplane stuff and got an 8” jointer

I would also be interested in a picture of this stone.

Another tip from me about King stones in general - based on my own experience with King Deluxe 800/1000/1200 and King 4k and 6k, for me all the stones mentioned work best with VERY LITTLE pressure. Others may see it differently, for me it was a game changer alongside the permasoak.

And if you take the time to familiarize yourself with these stones, amazingly good, very good results can be achieved.

I once read something about the Kings on a Japanese website - "even if these stones have been on the market for decades, do not underestimate the Kings". For me, others here may see it differently, that has come true.

 

[SilverSwarfer]

Yellow stone looks like Kitayama 8000 to me. I have one handy (pics), please excuse the present condition... this one has been abused in a restaurant for a couple years.

I have used the Kitayama 8k extensively for many years in restaurants, and owned several. The bases have continued to serve well as JNAT mounts after the stone finally wears out.

 

[Delat]

Yellow stone looks like Kitayama 8000 to me. I have one handy (pics), please excuse the present condition... this one has been abused in a restaurant for a couple years.

I have used the Kitayama 8k extensively for many years in restaurants, and owned several. The bases have continued to serve well as JNAT mounts after the stone finally wears out.

View attachment 161243View attachment 161244

What do you find it to be good at? e.g. Mostly creating a highly refined edge on carbon steels? Is it a soaker or splash and go?

Would it also be good for kasumi polishing?

 

[Delat]

I would also be interested in a picture of this stone.

Another tip from me about King stones in general - based on my own experience with King Deluxe 800/1000/1200 and King 4k and 6k, for me all the stones mentioned work best with VERY LITTLE pressure. Others may see it differently, for me it was a game changer alongside the permasoak.

And if you take the time to familiarize yourself with these stones, amazingly good, very good results can be achieved.

I once read something about the Kings on a Japanese website - "even if these stones have been on the market for decades, do not underestimate the Kings". For me, others here may see it differently, that has come true.

I'll get a pick of the final mystery stone; since it's a low grit I wasn't as curious about it.

I was soaking the king for about 10 mins, I'll try at least 24 hours next time. I started off with light to moderate pressure then increased to heavier pressure as my frustration built over the course of several sessions.

 

[SilverSwarfer]

What do you find it to be good at? e.g. Mostly creating a highly refined edge on carbon steels? Is it a soaker or splash and go?

Would it also be good for kasumi polishing?

For traditional J-knives (yanagiba, deba, usuba), I think it's a great finisher. It performs best for me as a soaker.

IME not so great for kasumi unless you're very careful with mud + pressure + water management, as it tends to bring the jigane to a higher polish than what I would consider to be a proper kasumi finish (high contrast, misty). Instead results tend toward high polish jigane and near-mirror hagane.

I use(d) Kitayama 8k for my yanagibas. Good for uraoshi sharpening, koba application/maintenance, and polishing. Mud is useful (nagura is included) for polishing and you can get nice near-mirror on soft-clad carbons. Most often I prefer JNATS instead of Kitayama... unless I am in a restaurant production environment, in which prized/valuable things tend to be ruined or possibly stolen.

I never used the K-8k for high wear-resistant or high carbide steels, but I did work with VG10 and stainless some. VG10 was not fun work on this stone, except if seeking a high polish. I would be very surprised if this stone is effective on the more modern steels.

 

[Delat]

Here’s the last mystery stone. I recall it being advertised as some kind of hybrid, maybe a ceramic hybrid?

To the touch it feels like unglazed teracotta pottery, and closer to my SG500 in grit than my SG1000. This was the stone I tried the most with my VG10 and was almost completely unable to raise a burr. I think I finally managed a puny partial burr after many days of attempts. I’m basically ready to chuck it in the bin. I’d send it somebody for free but I doubt it’s even worth the shipping.

 

[M1k3]

Here’s the last mystery stone. I recall it being advertised as some kind of hybrid, maybe a ceramic hybrid?

To the touch it feels like unglazed teracotta pottery, and closer to my SG500 in grit than my SG1000. This was the stone I tried the most with my VG10 and was almost completely unable to raise a burr. I think I finally managed a puny partial burr after many days of attempts. I’m basically ready to chuck it in the bin. I’d send it somebody for free but I doubt it’s even worth the shipping.

View attachment 161328

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Is it a hard, not muddy stone?

 

[Hanmak17]

Here’s the last mystery stone. I recall it being advertised as some kind of hybrid, maybe a ceramic hybrid?

To the touch it feels like unglazed teracotta pottery, and closer to my SG500 in grit than my SG1000. This was the stone I tried the most with my VG10 and was almost completely unable to raise a burr. I think I finally managed a puny partial burr after many days of attempts. I’m basically ready to chuck it in the bin. I’d send it somebody for free but I doubt it’s even worth the shipping.

View attachment 161328

View attachment 161329

This might be a synthetic Aoto. I've seen a few of these around. If you want to pass it on, I'll pay for shipping.

 

[Delat]

Is it a hard, not muddy stone?

Very hard.

 

[M1k3]

Very hard.

Probably an India stone?
https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Norton-India-Bench-Stone-8-x-3-P23C25.aspx

 

[KingShapton]

Is it possible that "hybrid" might mean a combination stone?

I'm not entirely sure, but from the second picture it looks like the stone could be made up of 2 different layers/sides?!

Aside from that, I haven't the faintest idea what kind of stone that might be. But on the first picture it looks like one side needs to be flattened urgently...

But that explains why the king didn't work on VG10 in the past. If the preliminary work with the stone before did not work, then the King is too fine and too slow. If you want to try it again now, I would start with another existing stone (maybe your Shapton) in the 1000 range and then finish with the King.

And I would really recommend you to read through the thread about the Hybrid-Edge, in this way the King can really produce a very good edge on kitchen knives.

 

[KingShapton]

Small addition: @M1k3 's assumption with the India oil stone could also explain the description "hybrid", which could then mean that the stone can be used with both water and oil.

However, once used with oil it can only be used with oil unless bathed in an oil solvent such as simple green. But you should be able to smell it if the stone has already been used with oil..

 

[Delat]

I’m sure it was a water stone and not oil, as I’ve always had an aversion to using oil on a stone. Also it’s not a combi, I think I just used to use both sides so they’re both dirty. And yup it looks like it really needs serious flattening - totally agree now that if I couldn’t raise a proper bevel with this guy then a 4k and 8k were never going to accomplish much.

It has this strange pottery kind of feel to it, if you know what I’m talking about. That dusty, dry, high friction feel you get from rough unglazed terracotta pots. And big bubbles come flying out when submerged.

I think I’ll ship it off to @Hanmak17 in a couple weeks once I’m less busy at work and let him play with it.

 

[Hanmak17]

I’m sure it was a water stone and not oil, as I’ve always had an aversion to using oil on a stone. Also it’s not a combi, I think I just used to use both sides so they’re both dirty. And yup it looks like it really needs serious flattening - totally agree now that if I couldn’t raise a proper bevel with this guy then a 4k and 8k were never going to accomplish much.

It has this strange pottery kind of feel to it, if you know what I’m talking about. That dusty, dry, high friction feel you get from rough unglazed terracotta pots. And big bubbles come flying out when submerged.

I think I’ll ship it off to @Hanmak17 in a couple weeks once I’m less busy at work and let him play with it.

Thanks man! Ping me and let me know shipping cost when you get around to it. I'll pass it on at some point as well if someone wants to test it.

 

[Hanmak17]

I’m sure it was a water stone and not oil, as I’ve always had an aversion to using oil on a stone. Also it’s not a combi, I think I just used to use both sides so they’re both dirty. And yup it looks like it really needs serious flattening - totally agree now that if I couldn’t raise a proper bevel with this guy then a 4k and 8k were never going to accomplish much.

It has this strange pottery kind of feel to it, if you know what I’m talking about. That dusty, dry, high friction feel you get from rough unglazed terracotta pots. And big bubbles come flying out when submerged.

I think I’ll ship it off to @Hanmak17 in a couple weeks once I’m less busy at work and let him play with it.

PS, I'm guessing it is something like this: JNS RED Aoto Matukusuyama

 

[Hanmak17]

Ok stone geeks, what ya tink dis is?

I'm guessing Naniwa pro 2k- 3k soaker.

Stone is fast and agressive, not gritty. It's pretty hard (synthetic L3.5-4 hard). Kicks up a fair amount of mud, but doesn't clog up too much. Leaves a very refined edge, no catching or pulling on the paper towel test.
I quite enjoy the stone, maybe a a bit softer and finer then the Gesshin 2k soaker.

Thanks to @Delat for letting me play with it.

 

[Hanmak17]

Sorry better photo attached

 

[branwell]

I'm guessing Naniwa pro 2k- 3k soaker.

The NP 2K is olive green ish and the 3K is sort of light maroon color. Really drawing a blank on what that is.

 

[Hanmak17]

The NP 2K is olive green ish and the 3K is sort of light maroon color. Really drawing a blank on what that is.

Yea that's what I thought too. This is clearly not the 800, but feels like a Naniwa soaker stone. Maybe I'm mistaken. I'd also say it's not the Red Aoto (synth) from JNS.

 

[KingShapton]

First thought was Imanishi 6k, but the Imanishi is splash&go.

 

[Delat]

Ok stone geeks, what ya tink dis is?

I'm guessing Naniwa pro 2k- 3k soaker.

Stone is fast and agressive, not gritty. It's pretty hard (synthetic L3.5-4 hard). Kicks up a fair amount of mud, but doesn't clog up too much. Leaves a very refined edge, no catching or pulling on the paper towel test.
I quite enjoy the stone, maybe a a bit softer and finer then the Gesshin 2k soaker.

Thanks to @Delat for letting me play with it.
View attachment 166413View attachment 166414View attachment 166415View attachment 166416View attachment 166417View attachment 166418View attachment 166419View attachment 166420

Hmmm, I just realized that “ceramic water stone” probably equaled “hybrid” in my head back when I bought these.

If the King is a 4k and the yellow stone is an 8k, then my thought process back then probably would’ve been a 2k to start the progression.

 

[Hanmak17]

Hmmm, I just realized that “ceramic water stone” probably equaled “hybrid” in my head back when I bought these.

If the King is a 4k and the yellow stone is an 8k, then my thought process back then probably would’ve been a 2k to start the progression.

Yes, this is a lower grit stone for sure. It doubt it's an 800 unless it is really fine for an 800. I can test it against the two other 800's I have and see if the scratch pattern is similar. Hardly scientific, but what the hell.

It's definitely a soaker as it is quite porous and only releases its abrasives after 10-15 min of soaking. It's a very thirsty stone in general. It cuts very well once it has soaked.