Stone progressions and burrs

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Twotimehojo said:
Thank you all for the great information! A lingering question:

My current plan is try and create a burr on my coarsest stone, flip and create another one. Then use lowering pressures to decrease the size of the burr. That said I am still flipping a burr, just that its smaller right?

Then when moving to the next finer grit stone, I am still flipping sides BECAUSE I am still creating a burr on each side. The idea is that the burr is getting progressively smaller. Or if I cannot feel it, I can use my eyes and ears to help. Eyes with a loupe and the sound of how the knife is against the stone. Over time, I will develop my own technique using the above fundamentals as a foundation to become a better sharpener.

Is that a good understanding of what most folks said above?
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For me...

Strive to fully deburr on every stone. I treat each stone like starting over. Yes, again, maybe I go a little lighter on the finer grits but I'm still looking to raise a burr and fully deburr before moving on.

Your knife needs to be sharp and complete off of every stone. If you're not sure where you are at right now, then just do one stone and strop and finish. Start with say the 500. Full sharpening and then you're done. If you have a persistent burr it will be very sharp but only last a couple slices and that burr will break or fold. Maybe use the knife for a few days or what have you.

Happy? 500 again and then your next stone and the same thing. And so on.

Just a thought that might teach you how you are truly doing in your progression. Both in terms of the edge and your understanding.

We can't grit our way into sharpness. Higher grits refine established edges making them keener.
 
Twotimehojo said:
Thank you all for the great information! A lingering question:

My current plan is try and create a burr on my coarsest stone, flip and create another one. Then use lowering pressures to decrease the size of the burr. That said I am still flipping a burr, just that its smaller right?

Then when moving to the next finer grit stone, I am still flipping sides BECAUSE I am still creating a burr on each side. The idea is that the burr is getting progressively smaller. Or if I cannot feel it, I can use my eyes and ears to help. Eyes with a loupe and the sound of how the knife is against the stone. Over time, I will develop my own technique using the above fundamentals as a foundation to become a better sharpener.

Is that a good understanding of what most folks said above?
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Unless using very light pressure, especially on a coarse stone, any trailing stroke is liable to raise a burr, and it becomes especially more critical if your angle consistency is not right.

I'd say not to get too much focused on mechanics right now, but pressure levels, and feeling. So coarse stone, use enough pressure to raise a burr, flip it, and deburr to best of abilities with lighter and lighter pressure. Then the next stones up you never use the burr pressure again, just the subsequent levels. If you do enough strokes on each side as you refine on further stones, yes you should feel a burr forming again. It will be small, easier and easier to shed away with the deburring strokes. Getting to the finest stone, well the subject of this discussion is that it is harder to see or feel a burr. Keep at it with feather pressure until the edge stroke sounds and feels clean. Don't forget to wash away any such burr from the surface of the stone when you see them, or they will "roll" under your edge as you continue.
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
Strive to fully deburr on every stone. I treat each stone like starting over...

Your knife needs to be sharp and complete off of every stone.
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This is soo key. After I added this to my routine, there was a huge jump in sharpness. I had been only (attempting to) fully deburring on my last stone. I think i read a thread about "mastering the 1k." There was this moment when i was like damn, there's something to deburring on the 1k. Then i applied it to the 3k oh sh... :D here we go.
 
i dont go for burrs at all. maybe i'm doing it wrong?

now for the restorations i just run them on the C stone until all chips are gone. then to the finisher until the C scratches are gone and the F finish is on the bevel. then i do alternation swiping motions. done.

for my own stuff i just put them on the finisher until i feel i have that finish on there. could be long or short. then alternating swipes.
or if i have to drop down low. then i start with a 1k and then to the finisher or some intermediate if going for a high grit stone such as a 12k as finisher.

in my ideal world i would hit the actual apex with the last swipe on the last stone. so yeah thats my ideal philosophy. but most of the time i just mash it for a while then go the fine stones. i try to do things as fast as possible. as efficient as possible.
 
With basics in mind, I think there's a logical three step progression into sharpening, and I might have gotten the order wrong which I feel has had me waste a lot of time. So I would go with:

-Get something sharper
-Understand which stone gives you the edge that works
-Deburring journey to perfection

I went to understand which stone worked best for my edge only late - and it was that one stone I had from the beginning and hated working on. It's all good that I focused on having a clean edge on SP2K for some and Rika for the finer ones - but where SP2K was the right choice for my softer steels, Rika edge was something I never cared for much - and realizing this late, it didn't help to focus on deburring because I still thought I was doing something wrong before understanding the best edges I ever experienced OOTB that far, which I strived for, were either dumb luck on a belt of short endurance, or any other stone than Rika for sure from makers actually sharpening knives on stones. Not speaking about understanding how geometry of the knife really played into "feeling" sharp where food separation was the more important factor than edge to some large extent.

This may seem stupid, but pay heed to the fact that:

- you must learn the basic motions on the stones, and getting something sharper than OOTB won't feel as such if the edge goes to even worse performance than after a month OOTB within a prep. You'll seek understanding, and learn about foil edge.

- you must differentiate sharpness that is given from a stone as partly a nature of that stone vs. how it works for you. It's not frustrating that in doing so, you'll get to the foil edge conundrum again. It's much more frustrating to lose weeks of chastising yourself, or being barely happier with well deburred edges that just don't work for you still or are not within ballpark of "better" edge you got to experience. Anyone can get the first step right to some extent, and "better" edge is a fluctuating concept along one's experience in sharpening that has some to do with skills in using/deburring, what he's got to experience better, and getting to understand where that better edge came from to begin with.

-journey to perfection - because you cannot never hit deburring problems in the first two steps of sharpening and very early get the notion nailed down to better extents because of failing edges. But getting focused on deburring when you can barely flip a burr to the other side, or don't understand that your actual stone finish is more deceptive than your deburring skills, is bad priority. It's like thinking you'll get better in any foot sport by running faster, whereas you can't control the ball no matter how fast you run.
 
Most important thing: Nobody is "right" - you have to find the path that works for you. Don't be afraid to try different techniques, and don't be afraid to NOT follow somebody's advice to the letter.

Second most important thing: Slow down. It's extremely unlikely that you can do this as quickly and surely as the best sharpeners you see on the internet - certainly not now. Take your time: it's extremely unlikely that you don't have the time to take an extra 3 minutes. The speed of your strokes is completely unimportant.

Here's my basic progression. On a "dull" knife (meaning it won't pushcut a paper towel cleanly, or it squashes trying to dice a tomato rather than cleanly sliding through the skin), I'll start on a 1K. I build the burr - which takes a different amount of time and strokes for different steels. I deburr with light high angle edge leading passes, one or two each side of the blade. I'll drag the edge over denim a time or two. Then I'll do light, on-angle edge-leading passes, declining 10 per side, then 8, then 6, then 4, then 2, then 1. I'll test by dragging on tissue. If nothing catches, the edge is clean. Then it's onto the 3K stone, and there, I'll ONLY do edge-leading light passes to polish on some blades, or I'll rebuild a super-fine burr on some others - it's just feel as to which is which. Either it's the whole process above, or it's just the edge-leading polishing. I'll then strop on leather. Done.

But I'm definitely not right. :D
 
Well hasn't this been an interesting thread eh!

I must confess that I normally don't normally make sure I've de-burred on each stone. But then I also don't normally check whether I have a burr. And I rarely use more than one stone on a knife anyway tbh... I find it kinda fun seeing how different stones compare doing the same thing. Knives will get useably sharp on a lot of things :)
 
big_adventure said:
Most important thing: Nobody is "right" - you have to find the path that works for you. Don't be afraid to try different techniques, and don't be afraid to NOT follow somebody's advice to the letter.

Second most important thing: Slow down. It's extremely unlikely that you can do this as quickly and surely as the best sharpeners you see on the internet - certainly not now. Take your time: it's extremely unlikely that you don't have the time to take an extra 3 minutes. The speed of your strokes is completely unimportant.

Here's my basic progression. On a "dull" knife (meaning it won't pushcut a paper towel cleanly, or it squashes trying to dice a tomato rather than cleanly sliding through the skin), I'll start on a 1K. I build the burr - which takes a different amount of time and strokes for different steels. I deburr with light high angle edge leading passes, one or two each side of the blade. I'll drag the edge over denim a time or two. Then I'll do light, on-angle edge-leading passes, declining 10 per side, then 8, then 6, then 4, then 2, then 1. I'll test by dragging on tissue. If nothing catches, the edge is clean. Then it's onto the 3K stone, and there, I'll ONLY do edge-leading light passes to polish on some blades, or I'll rebuild a super-fine burr on some others - it's just feel as to which is which. Either it's the whole process above, or it's just the edge-leading polishing. I'll then strop on leather. Done.

But I'm definitely not right. :D
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Curious. How did you arrive at the high angle one or two passes followed by declining passes at the burr angle. That would not seem intuitive.

I like the idea of edge leading. My Global is sharp for food but I have yet to push cut newspaper on one of my sharpened knives.
 
I have a tough time feeling a burr from 3000 grit and up. I usually tear off a small bit of kitchen towel or tissue paper and slowly slide it down from the spine towards the edge. If it catches, there is a burr.
 
Twotimehojo said:
Curious. How did you arrive at the high angle one or two passes followed by declining passes at the burr angle. That would not seem intuitive.

I like the idea of edge leading. My Global is sharp for food but I have yet to push cut newspaper on one of my sharpened knives.
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I think I first saw a video where someone did that - I have no idea who it was. The first high-angle edge leading passes are done at super light pressure - perhaps half the weight of the blade. They are just for pure deburring. I'll usually slide the blade through fabric or tissue after to ensure that most of the burr is gone, in addition to the three finger test. Then the rest of the edge-leading passes are done with fairly light pressure - around the weight of the blade plus perhaps a couple of ounces of finger pressure.

daveb said:
I like edge leading and use it to finish knives. But it's a technique to incorporate after you've gotten past the "wobbly" stage. It will de-burr but it will also trash an edge.
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Interesting. You certainly know more about sharpening than I do, but my experience has been that it works and doesn't trash the edge. I need to get a microscope and get a better look at it I suppose. At 10x, I don't see any issues to the edge, but that's not all that much magnification. I can pretty easily get edges to HHT2 - HHT4 depending on the steel and the angle using roughly that technique, stopping on the Chosera 3K stone plus stropping. And I use these blades on all my prep - including butternuts, onions, leeks, potatoes - every veggie imaginable really.
 
big_adventure said:
my experience has been that it works and doesn't trash the edge.
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From what he said, I think that just means that you're well past the "wobbly" stage. That you can hold a steady, consistent angle.
When I started out it took me a while before I could use edge leading strokes for deburring without rounding or crushing the edge.
 
Garm said:
From what he said, I think that just means that you're well past the "wobbly" stage. That you can hold a steady, consistent angle.
When I started out it took me a while before I could use edge leading strokes for deburring without rounding or crushing the edge.
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This.

My preference has always been to advise edge trailing to beginning sharpeners. It is very easy to ruin an apex with edge leading. I often still use edge trailing.
 
The thing for me is, I sharpen in sections, like most people do i think.

When deburring you make a sweeping motion from heel to tip or from tip to heel. So it's completely different then what I'm used to while sharpening. All of a sudden you have to raise your holding hand during one motion (im doing heel to tip) while hitting the edge before i reach the top of my stone.
Add to that that the very light pressure while doing a edge leading stroke, the feeling is completely gone.

Lately I used sharpy when I was done sharpening, just to see where i hit the edge when I try to debur using edge leading on a stone.

I almost started crying. Some parts were to obtuse, while near the tip I was too acute..

Im gonna ruin a lot of sharp knives this way while learning i guess..
 
Kawa said:
Lately I used sharpy when I was done sharpening, just to see where i hit the edge when I try to debur using edge leading on a stone.

I almost started crying. Some parts were to obtuse, while near the tip I was too acute..
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I think this would happen to a lot of people, definitely myself included. Like you said, the motion is quite different from that used during regular sharpening unless you use full sweeps for the entire process.

A lot of instruction videos from experienced sharpeners say to use deburring strokes at the exact same angle as that used when sharpening, yet if you pay close attention most of them raise the angle a little towards the end, probably subconciously. Others deliberately increase the angle for deburring, sometimes in several increments.

Cutting a bevel at an exact angle all the time, and subsequently hitting the entire bevel while at the same time reaching the apex at all points with every deburring stroke would be an amazing feat with freehand sharpening. It would mean creating an edge bevel without any convexity. Perhaps some insanely skilled sharpeners are able to do it. I strive for it to some extent, but can't say I have high hopes of ever being able to achieve it.
I should probably use sharpie more than I do, because it is a useful aid, but I find it can also be a little disruptive to the feel or rythm if I become too focused on it, if that makes sense?
 
cotedupy said:
I must confess that I normally don't normally make sure I've de-burred on each stone.
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Same here. I'll be trying it next time I sharpen.

I can usually feel a burr all the way up to 8000 grit, but if I'm not de-burring on each stone then I guess it's essentially the same burr getting flipped back and forth and getting smaller as the stones get finer.
 
Use a loupe with the sharpie, and you will cry even more. It allows to make sure the bevels do really meet. Burrs may appear before, depending on the used pressure and the type of steel. Relying only on the burr without checking with sharpie and loupe may result in the accumulation of debris on top of the old edge without the building of a new apex. The result may seem somewhat sharper because of the thinning behind the edge, or much sharper in case of a wire edge that will fail at the first board contact.
 
I make sure I deburr. IDGAF if it's deburred perfectly until the last. It has to cut paper without a single glitch at each step though, with the clean sound I'm expecting from the stone just used. Burr remnants are real easy to spot in how they make a cut sound like tearing more than like cutting. I think I fell into this pattern just because I was lazy and sometimes wouldn't clean the knife before going the next stone - until it slapped me back in the face. Not a big issue, but now I have to cut paper, so blade has to be clean and dry. :p

Ok ok I just love the sound of a fresh edge out of any stone and gave a lot of study to that sound.
 
In order to complicate things a bit more: after raising the first burr try to abrade it before raising one on the opposite side. So you make sure there's a new burr, and not just the old one flipping sides. Too often I read that raising the first burr was hard and did take a lot of time. The one on the opposite side apppearred almost instantly. Makes me suspicious. Especially when a notorious difficult steel like OP's Global is involved.
My proposals may seem cumbersome, but if applied with the first stone, the next ones require very little work.
 
I usually do a really quick deburr on every stone. Couple edge leading strokes with medium pressure on coarse stones, for instance. Makes it a bit easier to check progress on subsequent stones, and in my mind it results in better edges, but it probably doesn’t matter much.

It’s useful when doing edge leading strokes to keep a finger of the free hand right on the edge (partly on the stone) to form a guide. You sort of draw the knife to one side as you do the stroke, so your finger basically goes straight down the length of the stone, but makes contact with almost the whole edge during the stroke.

I basically never use sharpie or loupe for edges, although I did find it useful when starting out. For me it’s much easier to operate by feel than by sight.


Garm said:
Perhaps some insanely skilled sharpeners are able to do it. I strive for it to some extent, but can't say I have high hopes of ever being able to achieve it.
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I don’t think that kind of edge is of any particular benefit in the kitchen.
 
Benuser said:
In order to complicate things a bit more: after raising the first burr try to abrade it before raising one on the opposite side. So you make sure there's a new burr, and not just the old one flipping sides. Too often I read that raising the first burr was hard and did take a lot of time. The one on the opposite side apppearred almost instantly. Makes me suspicious. Especially when a notorious difficult steel like OP's Global is involved.
My proposals may seem cumbersome, but if applied with the first stone, the next ones require very little work.
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That’s a good point. It’s especially tempting to go easy on the second side if the second side is your slightly weaker side, like it is for me. (I’ve gotta make myself start the sharpening on the weak side somehow. It just feels unnatural to do that.) That said, if you hold a good angle and your stone is clean and flat the burr doesn’t usually flip till you’ve hit the apex.

On the stainless that I often sharpen for people, burrs can be tenacious! I usually go up to Chosera 800 or so, do a few edge leading strokes to get the edge mostly clean, then do something aggressive like ripping off the burr by drawing the knife through cork and/or stropping on the back of a blue sponge, then go back with light edge leading strokes on the 800 and finish with a couple edge trailing strokes on cardboard.
 
ian said:
It’s useful when doing edge leading strokes to keep a finger of the free hand right on the edge (partly on the stone) to form a guide. You sort of draw the knife to one side as you do the stroke, so your finger basically goes straight down the length of the stone, but makes contact with almost the whole edge during the stroke.
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This is how I do all my edge leading strokes. I don't think I saw anyone doing it this way, but after trying a dozen different ways to equalize pressure throughout the stroke, I decided on this. Nothing else felt as consistent for the entire edge.
 
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