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RED AOTO VS MONZENTO
Ive been meaning to do this comparison for a while, but have been waiting on finding a quality Monzento to go with the quality aoto. In the end, they both came from Jon, haha. A couple things that may help add some clarification to what are commonly seen as very similar stones (and they are). I like categorizing things, its something I like to do, and in the world of Jnats and other natural stones, you cant always get what you want, and thats fine. Im still in the boat of as long as it works, its good for me. But, for those confused about what the differences are between monzento and aotos, which included me (and still somewhat does), monzentos are a wholly different stone than aotos. Ive thrown a solid number of hours at parsing this out, and have also asked Jon the question; Jon being Jon, didnt want to give me a shady answer, so he checked with his expert sources in Japan, and they said that they are different stones - so I trust Jon and the sources he trusts. Trust is something that needs to given in this tight knit group of passionate like-minded people.
When Im talking about aotos, Im not talking about the blue traditional aotos of days past - hard and fine Kouzakis, Inokuras, and prime examples from Tanba. Remember that despite it meaning blue stone aotos can come in a variety of colors and still be an aoto, see Shinichis aoto page for a small example of different colors. So despite the terminology of blue stone already not making sense, the addition of many Atagoyama aotos (rather, akapins) certainly add to the confusion of parsing out what makes an aoto and aoto vs monzento. Monzentos too can come in different colors, from brown, gray, red, etc, and exhibit similar characteristics of the softer and coarser aotos (again, not the traditional fine aoto) - a coarser 1-3k grit, thats pretty soft and typically muddy and gives a very nice toothy edge. So its totally understandable to be confused. I wish it was more clear, because like I said, I like categorizing stuff, especially along clean cut lines. But this is also the beauty of Jnats. Finally, theres also the Saekis which are typically coarser than Monzentos. So from coarse to fine: Saeki→ Monzento→ Aoto, with different colors perhaps being slightly coarser/finer than others, but I havent experienced enough color variation within each stone type to comment on this.
Anyways, as I mentioned both Monzentos and Aotos (nowadays) as being coarse 1-3k, soft muddy stones giving a toothy finish perfect for butcher knives or anything where you want feedback. Kasumi finishes are made easier thanks to the muddiness filling in any crevices in an imperfectly flat kireha, as well as adding to general lubrication; great stones to train kasumi on. The kasumi finish generally has a visible scratch pattern, so some may want to finish the kasumi on something finer, or just leave it. You can always go back and finish the edge coarsely if you wish to get a finer kasumi finish.
Water management is certainly a factor. This combined with the softness that needs to be routinely flattened, and the muddiness, can turn some users off to them, who may prefer something harder and finer. Beginners can certainly benefit from these softer examples. These are often also seen as workhorses as they are often found in large formats, which I certainly like. Another cool things about them that I slightly touched on, is the large variety ie colors and subtle differences within each of these 3 stone types I mentioned. I look forward to trying out a number of different flavors. Red aotos are the most sought after (so Ive read and heard), for reasons Im not sure of, and this example was substantially more expensive than the monzento, despite the monzento being of generous proportions itself. Lets see if there are any notable differences between these quality stones.
As I do now when comparing two different stones, I will keep the same steel and switch between stones before moving onto a different steel type. I didnt do the usual slurry vs non-slurry as both these stones are sufficiently muddy, so there was no need. Lets do this!
MONZENTO:
Weights and Measures: 214x75x70; 2289g (density NA; not intact enough).
Appearance: Although not as big as the aoto, it's still a hefty stone. It's a dull nondescript brown color when dry, but deepens its hues when wet.
Texture and Smell: The texture is interesting - it's a bit soft and slightly smooth, but with a bit of a grip, not so much having any discernible grit or bumps, but the clay matrix kinda grabs at your skins a bit. Fairly aromatic, with wet cardboard and vegetation.
RED AOTO:
Weights and Measures: 234x76x80; 3054g (density NA, not intact enough)
Appearance: Big. A dull shade of reddish brown, that really pops when wet.
Texture and Smell: The surface is welcoming, almost soft. There is some texture, but not aggressive, but it does grab at your skin a bit, much like the monzento. Smells very rich - wet deep clay from the beach, mixed with iron.
SHARPENING EXPERIENCE
STAINLESS (K. Sabatier)
MONZENTO:
- The experience was as expected, and what it will be like every time I use this - very thirsty and very muddy. I dont mind the mud, but the water management is definitely a thing that Ill need to get over. Still, the action was mainly creamy with some grit bits, but overall pleasant.
- The edge definitely has some satisfying bite. I was surprised at the speed of burr development. The mud definitely throws up a lot of abrasive particles, and combined with the soft SS, they chewed quickly through it. Definitely could finish on this stone if youre looking for bite.
RED AOTO:
- The experience was almost exactly the same. I can barely tell the difference. Maybe the aoto is sliiiightly firmer, maybe a little less creamy.
- The edge is very similar too, but I would say this is slighty a more mature edge - firmer teeth in a more organized fashion. Its sliiiightly more refined, maybe 1-1.5k finer as it cut through paper a little easier.
SHIROGAMI (Yoshikazu Ikeda Shiro 3 Nakiri):
MONZENTO:
- The experience was fine. A little less creamy for some reason. Feedback was also a bit higher, with some grit felt, but nothing bad. Much faster than I anticipated, and a bit finer than the SS, knocking up another 500-1000 grit.
- The edge was toothy, even a bit finer than the SS, and sliced through paper much easier.
RED AOTO:
- So I thought the SS was fast because it was soft, but the aoto was flipping a burr on the shiro like ping pong - waaay faster than you would think with such a soft stone. Interestingly enough, the water management became less of an issue thanks to the speed at which this went. The action was relatively smooth, with some abrasive grit felt throughout; a little loud.
- The edge was suitably toothy, but even more refined than the SS, perhaps it could get toothier with more time.
AOGAMI (Tanaka Aogami 2 Nakiri):
MONZENTO:
- Again, very similar to the other steels. A little slower than the other steels, and the burr smaller as well.
- The edge was even finer than the shiro, which was finer than the SS. Looks like theres an inverse time relationship between keenness and time spent on the stone.
RED AOTO:
- Identical to the Monzento. Slower than the other steels.
- The edge was again finer than the shiro, losing a bit of teeth, actually. I probably need to increase the angle a bit next time to maintain the toothiness that you expect from an aoto.
KATABA (Shimanti Aogami 2 Deba):
MONZENTO:
- Definitely a mud fest. Smooth sailing a couple seconds in. Water management obviously a factor, if you're not on it, it dries quickly and some skipping can occur.
- Kasumi finish is really easy, and really fast. Scratch pattern is definitely visible, but totally acceptable, especially for any workhorses you have. You could definitely proceed to a finer stone to smooth out the scratch pattern if you wanted to.
RED AOTO:
- An even bigger mud fest. A fair bit creamier; truly a delight. Water management also an obvious factor.
- Kasumi finish is also very easy, and very fast. Gives an ever so slightly darker contrast, so go with this if you like a deeper finish.
FINAL THOUGHTS:
I'm really happy with both of these stones. I can see myself using these a lot, so I'm happy I have two. There are very subtle differences between them - the red aoto seems a little nicer in most things; a little easier, a slightly more professional toothy finish, it's also a bit bigger, but more expensive. That's all to say that the monzento is also a very good stone, and much more affordable. Interestingly enough, these aren't that easy to find, as most vendors deal in harder and finer stones b/c that's where the money is at. I highly suggest these if you're lacking in a muddy coarse stone, that gives great kasumi finishes, not to mention a wonderful bite. The sharpening experience, and finish are a good deal different than the binsuis or ikarashis many of us have, or even numatas or iyotos. These don't shape bevels for one, but these are full blown mud masters that are approachable, faster than you think, and give great finishes and edges. Next time you're online shopping for another fine finisher, consider getting one of these instead.
MONZENTO:
Pros: Cheap, big, pretty fast, very approachable, solid toothy finish, easy kasumi finish.
Cons: Not the easiest to find (but not really rare), the aoto is sliiiightly better at most things, water management/mud mess.
RED AOTO:
Pros: Big, fast, approachable, really good toothy finish, super easy kasumi finish.
Cons: Not the easiest to find (but not really rare), decently expensive, water management/mud mess.
TL;DR - GET ONE - YES OR NO?
Monzento:
Yes - if you want a cheaper option in testing the waters of the thirst, muddy, and coarse stones, prefer very toothy finishes, want to easily train your kasumi finish.
No - if you dislike muddy, thirsty stones, are already on your kasumi game, you prefer keen edges or already have your go to stone for toothy edges.
Red Aoto:
Yes - if you want the Cadillac of muddy, soft, coarse stones, enjoy toothy edges, want a quick and dirty kasumi finish and don't mind a visible scratch pattern
No - Don't feel the need to spend extra on a marginal increase in results that the Monzento can give you for cheaper, dislike muddy thirsty stones, prefer keen edges, already have a go to stone for consistent kasumi finishes.
Monzento - A bit more brown. Speckles are denser, and less circular, more oblong.
Red Aoto - a nice deep red with clearly visible roundish speckles evenly spaced out.
Even on double bevels knives, these mud masters strike.
Mud dries pretty quickly and leaves a soft paste.
Several seconds on the Monzento.
Although the lighting is killing the contrast, the Monzento finish is very nice. Slightly lighter than the red aoto at regular pressure. The aoto gives a 'fuller' finish.
Several seconds on the Red Aoto
Red Aoto finish is solid and bit fuller than the Monzento; pick your poison.
Aoto at tip, Monzento at heel. Besides the overly finished parts of the tip half by too much pressure, you can see a slight deeper finish than the slightly lighter (but nicely vibrant) finish from the Monzento.
Ive been meaning to do this comparison for a while, but have been waiting on finding a quality Monzento to go with the quality aoto. In the end, they both came from Jon, haha. A couple things that may help add some clarification to what are commonly seen as very similar stones (and they are). I like categorizing things, its something I like to do, and in the world of Jnats and other natural stones, you cant always get what you want, and thats fine. Im still in the boat of as long as it works, its good for me. But, for those confused about what the differences are between monzento and aotos, which included me (and still somewhat does), monzentos are a wholly different stone than aotos. Ive thrown a solid number of hours at parsing this out, and have also asked Jon the question; Jon being Jon, didnt want to give me a shady answer, so he checked with his expert sources in Japan, and they said that they are different stones - so I trust Jon and the sources he trusts. Trust is something that needs to given in this tight knit group of passionate like-minded people.
When Im talking about aotos, Im not talking about the blue traditional aotos of days past - hard and fine Kouzakis, Inokuras, and prime examples from Tanba. Remember that despite it meaning blue stone aotos can come in a variety of colors and still be an aoto, see Shinichis aoto page for a small example of different colors. So despite the terminology of blue stone already not making sense, the addition of many Atagoyama aotos (rather, akapins) certainly add to the confusion of parsing out what makes an aoto and aoto vs monzento. Monzentos too can come in different colors, from brown, gray, red, etc, and exhibit similar characteristics of the softer and coarser aotos (again, not the traditional fine aoto) - a coarser 1-3k grit, thats pretty soft and typically muddy and gives a very nice toothy edge. So its totally understandable to be confused. I wish it was more clear, because like I said, I like categorizing stuff, especially along clean cut lines. But this is also the beauty of Jnats. Finally, theres also the Saekis which are typically coarser than Monzentos. So from coarse to fine: Saeki→ Monzento→ Aoto, with different colors perhaps being slightly coarser/finer than others, but I havent experienced enough color variation within each stone type to comment on this.
Anyways, as I mentioned both Monzentos and Aotos (nowadays) as being coarse 1-3k, soft muddy stones giving a toothy finish perfect for butcher knives or anything where you want feedback. Kasumi finishes are made easier thanks to the muddiness filling in any crevices in an imperfectly flat kireha, as well as adding to general lubrication; great stones to train kasumi on. The kasumi finish generally has a visible scratch pattern, so some may want to finish the kasumi on something finer, or just leave it. You can always go back and finish the edge coarsely if you wish to get a finer kasumi finish.
Water management is certainly a factor. This combined with the softness that needs to be routinely flattened, and the muddiness, can turn some users off to them, who may prefer something harder and finer. Beginners can certainly benefit from these softer examples. These are often also seen as workhorses as they are often found in large formats, which I certainly like. Another cool things about them that I slightly touched on, is the large variety ie colors and subtle differences within each of these 3 stone types I mentioned. I look forward to trying out a number of different flavors. Red aotos are the most sought after (so Ive read and heard), for reasons Im not sure of, and this example was substantially more expensive than the monzento, despite the monzento being of generous proportions itself. Lets see if there are any notable differences between these quality stones.
As I do now when comparing two different stones, I will keep the same steel and switch between stones before moving onto a different steel type. I didnt do the usual slurry vs non-slurry as both these stones are sufficiently muddy, so there was no need. Lets do this!
MONZENTO:
Weights and Measures: 214x75x70; 2289g (density NA; not intact enough).
Appearance: Although not as big as the aoto, it's still a hefty stone. It's a dull nondescript brown color when dry, but deepens its hues when wet.
Texture and Smell: The texture is interesting - it's a bit soft and slightly smooth, but with a bit of a grip, not so much having any discernible grit or bumps, but the clay matrix kinda grabs at your skins a bit. Fairly aromatic, with wet cardboard and vegetation.
RED AOTO:
Weights and Measures: 234x76x80; 3054g (density NA, not intact enough)
Appearance: Big. A dull shade of reddish brown, that really pops when wet.
Texture and Smell: The surface is welcoming, almost soft. There is some texture, but not aggressive, but it does grab at your skin a bit, much like the monzento. Smells very rich - wet deep clay from the beach, mixed with iron.
SHARPENING EXPERIENCE
STAINLESS (K. Sabatier)
MONZENTO:
- The experience was as expected, and what it will be like every time I use this - very thirsty and very muddy. I dont mind the mud, but the water management is definitely a thing that Ill need to get over. Still, the action was mainly creamy with some grit bits, but overall pleasant.
- The edge definitely has some satisfying bite. I was surprised at the speed of burr development. The mud definitely throws up a lot of abrasive particles, and combined with the soft SS, they chewed quickly through it. Definitely could finish on this stone if youre looking for bite.
RED AOTO:
- The experience was almost exactly the same. I can barely tell the difference. Maybe the aoto is sliiiightly firmer, maybe a little less creamy.
- The edge is very similar too, but I would say this is slighty a more mature edge - firmer teeth in a more organized fashion. Its sliiiightly more refined, maybe 1-1.5k finer as it cut through paper a little easier.
SHIROGAMI (Yoshikazu Ikeda Shiro 3 Nakiri):
MONZENTO:
- The experience was fine. A little less creamy for some reason. Feedback was also a bit higher, with some grit felt, but nothing bad. Much faster than I anticipated, and a bit finer than the SS, knocking up another 500-1000 grit.
- The edge was toothy, even a bit finer than the SS, and sliced through paper much easier.
RED AOTO:
- So I thought the SS was fast because it was soft, but the aoto was flipping a burr on the shiro like ping pong - waaay faster than you would think with such a soft stone. Interestingly enough, the water management became less of an issue thanks to the speed at which this went. The action was relatively smooth, with some abrasive grit felt throughout; a little loud.
- The edge was suitably toothy, but even more refined than the SS, perhaps it could get toothier with more time.
AOGAMI (Tanaka Aogami 2 Nakiri):
MONZENTO:
- Again, very similar to the other steels. A little slower than the other steels, and the burr smaller as well.
- The edge was even finer than the shiro, which was finer than the SS. Looks like theres an inverse time relationship between keenness and time spent on the stone.
RED AOTO:
- Identical to the Monzento. Slower than the other steels.
- The edge was again finer than the shiro, losing a bit of teeth, actually. I probably need to increase the angle a bit next time to maintain the toothiness that you expect from an aoto.
KATABA (Shimanti Aogami 2 Deba):
MONZENTO:
- Definitely a mud fest. Smooth sailing a couple seconds in. Water management obviously a factor, if you're not on it, it dries quickly and some skipping can occur.
- Kasumi finish is really easy, and really fast. Scratch pattern is definitely visible, but totally acceptable, especially for any workhorses you have. You could definitely proceed to a finer stone to smooth out the scratch pattern if you wanted to.
RED AOTO:
- An even bigger mud fest. A fair bit creamier; truly a delight. Water management also an obvious factor.
- Kasumi finish is also very easy, and very fast. Gives an ever so slightly darker contrast, so go with this if you like a deeper finish.
FINAL THOUGHTS:
I'm really happy with both of these stones. I can see myself using these a lot, so I'm happy I have two. There are very subtle differences between them - the red aoto seems a little nicer in most things; a little easier, a slightly more professional toothy finish, it's also a bit bigger, but more expensive. That's all to say that the monzento is also a very good stone, and much more affordable. Interestingly enough, these aren't that easy to find, as most vendors deal in harder and finer stones b/c that's where the money is at. I highly suggest these if you're lacking in a muddy coarse stone, that gives great kasumi finishes, not to mention a wonderful bite. The sharpening experience, and finish are a good deal different than the binsuis or ikarashis many of us have, or even numatas or iyotos. These don't shape bevels for one, but these are full blown mud masters that are approachable, faster than you think, and give great finishes and edges. Next time you're online shopping for another fine finisher, consider getting one of these instead.
MONZENTO:
Pros: Cheap, big, pretty fast, very approachable, solid toothy finish, easy kasumi finish.
Cons: Not the easiest to find (but not really rare), the aoto is sliiiightly better at most things, water management/mud mess.
RED AOTO:
Pros: Big, fast, approachable, really good toothy finish, super easy kasumi finish.
Cons: Not the easiest to find (but not really rare), decently expensive, water management/mud mess.
TL;DR - GET ONE - YES OR NO?
Monzento:
Yes - if you want a cheaper option in testing the waters of the thirst, muddy, and coarse stones, prefer very toothy finishes, want to easily train your kasumi finish.
No - if you dislike muddy, thirsty stones, are already on your kasumi game, you prefer keen edges or already have your go to stone for toothy edges.
Red Aoto:
Yes - if you want the Cadillac of muddy, soft, coarse stones, enjoy toothy edges, want a quick and dirty kasumi finish and don't mind a visible scratch pattern
No - Don't feel the need to spend extra on a marginal increase in results that the Monzento can give you for cheaper, dislike muddy thirsty stones, prefer keen edges, already have a go to stone for consistent kasumi finishes.
Monzento - A bit more brown. Speckles are denser, and less circular, more oblong.
Red Aoto - a nice deep red with clearly visible roundish speckles evenly spaced out.
Even on double bevels knives, these mud masters strike.
Mud dries pretty quickly and leaves a soft paste.
Several seconds on the Monzento.
Although the lighting is killing the contrast, the Monzento finish is very nice. Slightly lighter than the red aoto at regular pressure. The aoto gives a 'fuller' finish.
Several seconds on the Red Aoto
Red Aoto finish is solid and bit fuller than the Monzento; pick your poison.
Aoto at tip, Monzento at heel. Besides the overly finished parts of the tip half by too much pressure, you can see a slight deeper finish than the slightly lighter (but nicely vibrant) finish from the Monzento.
