Stropping on medium grit stones

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Also, small public service: let me repost what @Kippington said, to make up for the fact that when I was asking him questions above, I somehow hadn’t noticed that he explained every step of the video right underneath the embedded media.

I don’t think there’s anything to add to what’s below. Thanks again. Tried it out on some customers’ knives today and seemed to work pretty well, although the steel I was sharpening was pretty crappy so the whole process wasn’t very satisfying. Looking forward to trying it out on worthy steel.


- Start: Knife is blunt, showing some tests to prove it
- 17 seconds: Sharpening starts, medium stone
- 24 seconds: Fine stone
- 35 seconds: Deburr, almost right angle knife-to-stone, diagonal run as to not cut into stone. Extremely low pressure. This pushes burr to the left side of knife
- 39 seconds: Pushing burr over again, even further. Low pressure again
- 42 seconds: Combination of cutting burr off completely + microbevel + polish edge.
- End: Repeat of edge tests

Hope it makes sense.

The point was mainly to show the deburr at 35 seconds and 40 seconds. Bend the burr over till it breaks off, then do whatever you need to do to get the knife sharp again (without bringing another burr in). Shouldn't take long.
 
Also, small public service: let me repost what @Kippington said, to make up for the fact that when I was asking him questions above, I somehow hadn’t noticed that he explained every step of the video right underneath the embedded media.

I don’t think there’s anything to add to what’s below. Thanks again. Tried it out on some customers’ knives today and seemed to work pretty well, although the steel I was sharpening was pretty crappy so the whole process wasn’t very satisfying. Looking forward to trying it out on worthy steel.
After much trial and error, I use this method on every knife that I deburr, kitchen knives, hunting knives and even pocket knives.
 
The gizmo, jiigs or what ever you call it, that we use is basically benchstone sharpening, nothing else... Just imagine a golf or tennis teacher leading your movement while hitting the target/ball.

It`s not just like giving an exact angle, it can reduce the pressure brought to piece of steel that is at least 10 times slimer than aluminium foil ! Remember that... Don `t joke about it, it makes sence, and will improve everybody`s sharpening....

In my test runs, and i was an absolute hater of Jiigs like EP Wicked edge etc.... laughed loud about it ;) .. So no matter what you gonna say about such things "you never will touch" etc....
It works and it is faster then freehand, you get much sharper results (no problem to do a HHT-5 freehand, and i think some of you might get this too!) but the edge will fold roll and be unable to cut after a few cuts.... You know this problem... A Jiig like this solves this problem, and this is the cool thing about it... Take a good steel knife, sharper then a razor blade, and even sharper then most straight razors! (not a joke!) , and cut longer with it then with your best grind ever on medium stones.....

Back to topic, edge leading rulez! ask the Straight razor guys they know how to sharpen! Edge trailing is a waste of time...

Greets Sebastian.

Greets Sebastian.
As someone who likes cool technology I understand the fascination with fiddling with jigs. But for practical purposes you are fooling yourself.

Unless you have a fixed jig that never moves and you only use a couple of abrasives, the concept that it is quicker than free hand sharpening is a myth you jig sharpening guys have spread to convince yourselves why you can't park your car in your garages anymore or why half of your living room looks like it belongs in a garage.
 
Unless you have a fixed jig that never moves and you only use a couple of abrasives, the concept that it is quicker than free hand sharpening is a myth....

IF this think works only chosera 800/3K combo you're still 99% golden. :D
 
IMHO Freehand sharpening needs greater pressure levels to maintain stability, since higher degrees of freedom must be stabilized. A jig will always have N-2 (=4) degrees of freedom vs n-1 freehand (5) vs holding in space (N=6) df.

Hypothesis: a microbevel angel is more agressive so perhaps a more subtle amount of pressure is viable?
 
As someone who likes cool technology I understand the fascination with fiddling with jigs. But for practical purposes you are fooling yourself.

Unless you have a fixed jig that never moves and you only use a couple of abrasives, the concept that it is quicker than free hand sharpening is a myth you jig sharpening guys have spread to convince yourselves why you can't park your car in your garages anymore or why half of your living room looks like it belongs in a garage.

sure, and a wood stove is also faster than induction :D

Why are most guys using a ruler if they want to draw a straight line ? ;)

Regards

Uwe
 
sure, and a wood stove is also faster than induction :D

Why are most guys using a ruler if they want to draw a straight line ? ;)

Regards

Uwe
You can definitely get a wood stove much hotter than an induction oven. Even self cleaning ovens Max out at 900 degrees which is so dangerous that the oven locks until complete.

With a wood oven you can get 800 degrees plus with no worrying about breakdown of electronics making both pizzas and seared steaks quicker and easier than stabbing a Paris cop during lunch hours.

Was that too soon? Are we still grieving for Paris? I didn't get the memo. Someone shoot me a memo.
 
I like real fire also.....

but start with an cold woodstove or induction for two eggs :D

Guess what is faster ;)

Regards

Uwe
 
I like real fire also.....

but start with an cold woodstove or induction for two eggs :D

Guess what is faster ;)

Regards

Uwe

You are still comparing apples to oranges. Wood ovens are slow by nature and design.

A better comparison would be, say, French Press coffee to a coffee machine. Sure if the beans are in the filter, in the machine ready to go then it may be faster depending on the machine. But what if you want a finer or coarser grind? What if you want different water temperature? What if you want different water to bean ratio? What about cleanup? Then you see the French Coffee Press will shine in versatility and adaptability. A jig is neither of those things in comparison to free hand.
 
so you can sharpen freehand a 400g cleaver only touching with 10g pressure the stone in an exact angle ?

With the jig i use anything can be done what is possible freehand, but with pressurecontrol, the only thing not possible is to mess up the angle or leaving upper and lower angel for convex sharpening. ;)

Regards

Uwe
 
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To de-burr consistently, it comes down to understanding the relationship between Force and Pressure, understanding how a knife can move to maintain a steady angle using the entire stone's surface, and understanding the properties of the steel.

Geometry of the blade (based off of a maker's understanding of the material they are working with) is much more important in how long an edge lasts, than any other factor other than how it's being used.

Without any of that knowledge, whatever way your doing it, is just going through the motions. For some, that may be good enough, but others, well, I guess we're going down that rabbit hole.
 
so you can sharpen freehand a 400g cleaver only touching with 10g pressure the stone in an exact angle ?

With the jig i use anything can be done what is possible freehand, but with pressurecontrol, the only thing not possible is to mess up the angle or leaving upper and lower angel for convex sharpening. ;)

Regards

Uwe
Nobody ever said you can measure specific pressure with freehand and to be honest that is not what it is for. And to be honest it is not something I care to measure even if you asked me to.
 
To de-burr consistently, it comes down to understanding the relationship between Force and Pressure, understanding how a knife can move to maintain a steady angle using the entire stone's surface, and understanding the properties of the steel.

Geometry of the blade (based off of a maker's understanding of the material they are working with) is much more important in how long an edge lasts, than any other factor other than how it's being used.

Without any of that knowledge, whatever way your doing it, is just going through the motions. For some, that may be good enough, but others, well, I guess we're going down that rabbit hole.
That is not true. There are lots of ways to de-burr and I have not seen any side by side comparisons or experiments done to show various methods with various steels.
 
That is not true. There are lots of ways to de-burr and I have not seen any side by side comparisons or experiments done to show various methods with various steels.

Hmmm, for some reason, I don't see where I said there is only one way to de-burr. I just tried to point out that using one method to de-burr, rather than understanding what's actually happening with the knife you're working on, is the wrong path. Maybe I was unclear. Knowledge is power, and there is never just one way to do anything.
 
giphy.webp
 
Picture didn't show up. It's probably for the best because I had nothing nice to add to this pile anyway.;)
 
Hmmm, for some reason, I don't see where I said there is only one way to de-burr. I just tried to point out that using one method to de-burr, rather than understanding what's actually happening with the knife you're working on, is the wrong path. Maybe I was unclear. Knowledge is power, and there is never just one way to do anything.
I can reiterate.

There are a few ways to de-burr consistently without any concern for force or pressure within reason.

When you cut into a cork the pressure increases the deeper you cut but nobody is measuring these things.

Assuming you are not exerting enough force to cut through frozen meat there is a wide tolerance for what is too much or too little force.
 
This thread has devolved into a 'jig vs. freehand' thread, which is unfortunate, as the OP's intent was merely to show some detail of his preferred deburring technique (With microscope images, which are always nice to see, and the vast majority of people who are into sharpening and are happy with their edges do not examine or share...)... There are lots of ways to achieve sharp culinary edges, which for me is part of the fun of sharpening.

I am a freehand sharpener. Not because I believe it superior, but because I don't have access to a jig system that has been as well engineered as the Bogdan system, or some of the other more obscure jigs... I really enjoy the tactility of freehand sharpening, and am constantly learning about what I do, but every time I sharpen I am reminded that precision is never a bad thing in creating an edge... Sure, less precise edges can still get the work done... But even for the freehand craftsman, there are days when your hands are steadier than others, and you can feel the difference in the edges you create... This is real. Unless robots are posting their sharpening results, we're all human. There's a zen to freehand sharpening a knife, and I could easily spend the rest of my life learning to do it better... But if I could achieve an edge with perfect angle and pressure control across the full curvature and length of a blade, using a jig, I'd do it every time unless the urge to rock it 'old school' took me over... Precision is part of what we try to train ourselves to do as freehand sharpeners, and a jig that is well designed theoretically can take that to the next level without degrading our 'craft'.

Edge Pros and Wicked Edge type systems simply don't cut it... Their mechanism is too simplified, and too short to adapt to edges without visibly distorting them, and causing localized oversharpening and angle change on many different blade sizes and shapes. They're only accurate if you had a blade that matched the exact curvature of their arc... The sort of jig being talked about in this thread, is not the same sort most people associate with jig-based sharpening systems.

I've not tried an edge from Sharpchef or Suntravel, nor do I own the jigs they're using... I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm simply someone who loves to cook, and finds sharpening relaxing, and has spent a lot of time on my own trying to do both better, and I really enjoy the tools I use (Knives, stones, cookware, stoves, etc.)... I can see both sides of the fence (At work in a professional kitchen in between shifts or on the fly, creating the most precise edge on a knife simply isn't possible. Short of using an actual steel, I'm not comfortable taking a knife to stone or strop without washing before and after, which adds a layer of inconvenience to the process which never feels practical... At home, or if you're doing this professionally in your workshop, you could deliver more precise edges...).

I also straight shave, and sharpen my own razors... There's a big difference between a knife edge that can scrape-shave arm hair, and an edge that can pass a genuine HHT. I've sharpened edges freehand on knives that I've convinced myself I can comfortably shaved my face with... Then I've sharpened my razor fully on those same stones, and reminded myself that the precision sharpening with the blade riding flat on the spine affords me, puts that edge into an entirely different level. Precision does matter. As a human being, without a mechanism to align the blade, I'm not perfect at it. I'm good enough freehand to put a decent edge on a blade that can shave hair, and cut food, and pass all the standard paper/tissue tests, and shows no major defect under 120X magnification... But there's a lot of room for improvement still between my best, and worst day, and what I could theoretically create with some better alignment.

I have looked at enough microscope images of edges to know what I'm looking at, and whilst it would make even more sense at even higher than 230X (SEM images of edges are really fun to look at.), I can see the point Suntravel's trying to prove... There's some plastic drawing of the steel in the second image that isn't present in the first, and the first has a more consistent tooth profile at the apex. The first doesn't look as keen at that angle, but it's also doubtlessly more stable. Edge-leading vs. edge-trailing deburring, even freehand, does create a different feeling edge... Try it. Approach angle can also change the way a blade feels, and pressure is hugely important. I put the final edge on with only the weight of the blade held between my fingertips, and wish I could do even less; especially in areas the curvature increases, and so does the PSI.

Most people would be beyond thrilled with any edge which was simply deburred properly on the stones (Edge trailing or leading), without actually breaking or wearing it off by cutting into cork/wood/felt, whether or not there was some wire-edge effect... However, if edge science is interesting to you, these images and what information Suntravel and Sharpchef are sharing is quite interesting.

- Steampunk
 
I can reiterate.

There are a few ways to de-burr consistently without any concern for force or pressure within reason.

When you cut into a cork the pressure increases the deeper you cut but nobody is measuring these things.

Assuming you are not exerting enough force to cut through frozen meat there is a wide tolerance for what is too much or too little force.

I respectfully disagree. Even de-burring in a cork requires you to properly form and weaken the burr for it to be removed in the cork. Even if someone doesn't understand the words force and pressure, they may instinctively know what to do.

Most people don't do a great job at de-burring, and even experts can miss parts of them.

Seems weird that you think someone can consistently remove a burr without knowing what one is, how to form one, and how to remove it.
 
I respectfully disagree. Even de-burring in a cork requires you to properly form and weaken the burr for it to be removed in the cork. Even if someone doesn't understand the words force and pressure, they may instinctively know what to do.

Most people don't do a great job at de-burring, and even experts can miss parts of them.

Seems weird that you think someone can consistently remove a burr without knowing what one is, how to form one, and how to remove it.

Forming a burr is a natural process. I don't see how a burr does not form unless you sharpen at high angles or just don't know how to sharpen in general.

You are confusing knowing versus caring. Besides, people do things in their daily lives without knowing the reason why. They simply go through the process they were taught. You can teach someone de-burring methods and never explain what the purpose is. It is all about the end result.

Who are these experts that you are referring to that don't remove burrs properly? Is this personal experience? 3rd party reports? Did you find this out through an ancient scroll written by cooks who complained that their local blade sharpener couldn't remove burrs properly?
 
This thread has devolved into a 'jig vs. freehand' thread, which is unfortunate, as the OP's intent was merely to show some detail of his preferred deburring technique - Steampunk

Where would KKF be without the regular thread hijacks? Besides, I stand by my opinion that jigs are not practical for most people. This is different if sharpening is your profession or if you have the dedicated space and time to experiment. I would never tell a person not to install a engine lift in their garage or a sewing machine in their living room.
 
Yeah. But most people also don't need more than one kitchen knife or boxes full of natural stones etc. Obviously these things aren't for everyone.
 
Forming a burr is a natural process. I don't see how a burr does not form unless you sharpen at high angles or just don't know how to sharpen in general.

You are confusing knowing versus caring. Besides, people do things in their daily lives without knowing the reason why. They simply go through the process they were taught. You can teach someone de-burring methods and never explain what the purpose is. It is all about the end result.

Who are these experts that you are referring to that don't remove burrs properly? Is this personal experience? 3rd party reports? Did you find this out through an ancient scroll written by cooks who complained that their local blade sharpener couldn't remove burrs properly?

This is all from personal experience. I'm a local knife sharpener, and compete against grocery stores that offer free sharpening. I've handled over 30 thousands knives, inspecting them, repairing them, and sharpening them. I've had amazing reviews, though I can admit, I've gotten some knives back that even I can acknowledge I've done a poor job (something about a doing 50 knives in a day while your back is screaming at you).

There has been more than a couple occasions where I've had to repair work done by the "Other" places. To hold a knife that someone said was just sharpened, and to find not just burrs, but complete over-grinds. Maybe I read too much into it, but I have to know exactly what's wrong with a blade in order to know how to fix it properly. Then I just need to take my time to get there. I guess my point is something you just said, "They simply go through the process they were taught."

I am amazed at the amount of people that have no clue as to how to put an edge on a knife. Its not necessarily a bad thing, as I'm sure I have no clue about most of what they know. Sharpening a knife, or at least getting a better edge on it than when you begin, is fairly simple, but the amount of people willing to put in the time to build a burr, let alone remove it properly is quite limited (and yes, there are multiple ways to do it, but setting it up to be removed easily can be tricky sometimes, even for the seasoned pro).
 
This is all from personal experience. I'm a local knife sharpener, and compete against grocery stores that offer free sharpening. I've handled over 30 thousands knives, inspecting them, repairing them, and sharpening them. I've had amazing reviews, though I can admit, I've gotten some knives back that even I can acknowledge I've done a poor job (something about a doing 50 knives in a day while your back is screaming at you).

There has been more than a couple occasions where I've had to repair work done by the "Other" places. To hold a knife that someone said was just sharpened, and to find not just burrs, but complete over-grinds. Maybe I read too much into it, but I have to know exactly what's wrong with a blade in order to know how to fix it properly. Then I just need to take my time to get there. I guess my point is something you just said, "They simply go through the process they were taught."

I am amazed at the amount of people that have no clue as to how to put an edge on a knife. Its not necessarily a bad thing, as I'm sure I have no clue about most of what they know. Sharpening a knife, or at least getting a better edge on it than when you begin, is fairly simple, but the amount of people willing to put in the time to build a burr, let alone remove it properly is quite limited (and yes, there are multiple ways to do it, but setting it up to be removed easily can be tricky sometimes, even for the seasoned pro).

I imagine these grocery stores are just pulling the knife through a machine or somethjng like that, no? If so, I would indeed bet they don’t think at all about burr removal.
 
I imagine these grocery stores are just pulling the knife through a machine or somethjng like that, no? If so, I would indeed bet they don’t think at all about burr removal.

Depends on the store. Looks like they are independent from one another, and relies heavily on who's running the butcher department. Some on pull throughs, some on stones, some on 18" belt grinders with jigs. But not thinking about what they are doing is harsh, but most likely, bet.
 
Depends on the store. Looks like they are independent from one another, and relies heavily on who's running the butcher department. Some on pull throughs, some on stones, some on 18" belt grinders with jigs. But not thinking about what they are doing is harsh, but most likely, bet.

Interesting. Where are you based? It’s hard to imagine a grocery store around here having someone use stones on anything.

Unrelatedly, how’d you get into the business? I’ve been considering starting to charge a bit for my services, which so far have been free, although I’m not planning to ever do it as my main job. Were you originally a cook, or...? Did you just pick up a medium grit stone one day and start stropping? #ontopic
 
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