Suerhiro Cerax 6K vs Suehiro Shiramine 6K

[branwell]

Hay Lads,

Have any of you tried both these stones?
How do they compare to each other for sharpening feel, speed, edge, etc?

Many thanks.

 

[Walla]

Can only comment on the shiramine. I only have a Rika 5k, king 6k and naniwa traditional 6k to compare it to. If any of these comparisons would help...just let me know.



Take care

Jeff

 

[branwell]

Can only comment on the shiramine. I only have a Rika 5k, king 6k and naniwa traditional 6k to compare it to. If any of these comparisons would help...just let me know.

Of the ones you mention, I have King 6K and Rika.

While I love how the Rika feels, I'm not such a fan of its edge, and the opposite is true of the King. I really like its edge but I'm not a fan of how it feels or its less than stellar speed.

If the either of the Shiramine had an edge more like the king with the feel of the Rika I'd be pretty happy.

So what do you think?

 

[Walla]

I'm a big fan of the Rika...I don't notice a huge difference between the Rika and shiramine when it comes to the edge... there's a bigger difference when doing wide bevels. I think I might just like what you don't.

King 6 sure does polish nicely and quickly almost mirror yet the edge it leaves doesn't seem completely devoid of toothyness.(it does make me curious about the king 8k...not enough that I have to run out and get one right away but perhaps one day)

The one I use least is the naniwa traditional 6...it seems to be a lot like the Rika 5k leaving toothy and somewhat aggressive edges.

Out of the 3 I think the king 6 dishes the slowest even if it is the easiest to gouge (feel free to ask me how I know this... LoL)

All that being said for me, for what I use them for and my current level of ability...I'd think I'd have to say for me it's the Rika and the King 6 that get the most use... mostly because they're on the top of the pile of stones and I don't have to dig them out. I can be a bit lazy.

Now I'm thinking I need to dig the others out from underneath...and somehow feel the need to have 5 of the same knife to try them out side by side and not depend so much on subjective memories. If I keep thinking like that I'll never get around to buying a king 8k...

If there's anything specific about any of the stones you'd like to know... let me know...


Take care

Jeff

 

[Garm]

I haven't tried either of the stones, so unfortunately I can't be of much help.
A friend from another forum, whose abilities and opinions I respect after long conversations as well as seeing what his edges can do, has owned the entire Suehiro traditional lineup, save one of the 8k stones. He had either the AluOx or Silicon carbide version, but I can't remember which one. Recently the Ouka has exploded in popularity here, but he used and spoke very highly of this stone years ago when it was sold as the "Kouga" at Toolsfromjapan.com.

Back on topic, he described the Shiramine as a natural continuation of the other lower grit stones in that series in how it worked(fast cutting, pleasant, creamy feel etc.), and as being slightly harder than the Rika.
I suspect a lot of people here have actually used it, but as a house brand stone from a another vendor. At least they look identical, and are produced by Suehiro, but as I can't say for certain, I'm a little reluctant to mention which stone and vendor.

As for the feel of the King stone(s), have you tried giving the 6k and 8k extended soaks? I find this improves the sharpening feel a bit. More drag or friction on the stones. I also love the edges from King stones.

 

[ModRQC]

At one point one of the debate was if Cerax 5K is the same as Rika. One member posted an e-mail he got from the manufacturer saying they were the same than the regular Cerax line, just different naming schemes for different markets. In line with this, it would tend to indicate Cerax 3K = Ouka and Cerax 6K = Shiramine.

Never used any of the two.

 

[branwell]

If I keep thinking like that I'll never get around to buying a king 8k...

Hahaha. I'm a huge fan of the King 8K Gold. Awesome edge. Very keen and still a little bite. And its much faster than the King 6k.

Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.

 

[branwell]

Cerax 3K = Ouka and Cerax 6K = Shiramine.

I heard that about the Ouka and Cerax 3K. Someone on this forum said they had both and couldn't tell them apart and someone else spoke to Suehiro who said they where the same. Either way, I am a massive fan of the Ouka.

I hadn't heard that the Cerax 6K and Shiramine where the same.

 

[ModRQC]

I heard that about the Ouka and Cerax 3K. Someone on this forum said they had both and couldn't tell them apart and someone else spoke to Suehiro who said they where the same. Either way, I am a massive fan of the Ouka.

I hadn't heard that the Cerax 6K and Shiramine where the same.

As my reply said the first case that I remember of this was about Rika and not Ouka. It’s just logical: ouka, rika, shiramine are all part of a Professional lineup, but if one is the cerax and the manufacturer said there were the same and only marketing purposes, I’m thinking it applies to the rest of that series as well. They’re just relabeled - the professional seemingly targeting the best stones out of the cerax lineup towards polishing or single bevel use or something. And as I said IDK, it’s just a logical leap.

 

[TurboScooter]

I don't know if this is what ModRQC is referring to, but there was this thread about Suehiros where a similar topic came up.

I have contacted Suehiro regarding the question of cerax\ouka\rika 3000 differences:

this was the answer:

Is the same.
Sales destination is different, but it does not matter to consumers.
SUEHIRO CO.,LTD

they respond within an hour.

i hope it will be helpful for some of suehiro confusion..

Daniel.

 

[ModRQC]

Thanks @TurboScooter

It’s one of the ones. IIRC it had already came up some before that I know of in some digression within some threads.

Then again, as to how the question was formulated, and understood by the manufacturer, I could never be entirely sure if it was about only the Rika or all of these. And there was at least another member besides Daniel that had asked questions of the same nature and got an answer that he posted on KKF in which Suehiro used a « please understand » formulation that I distinctly remember in explaining they were meant for different markets.

And then @cotedupy posted about getting a New Cerax 3000 to replace an old Cerax one and being worried what the « New » Cerax line exactly meant that was new. In the end he concluded that to him it was the very same recipe of stone. And in reading his comments and seeing his pictures of the cerax 3K, I myself was pretty darn sure it was the same as an Ouka.

So my very best guess without harassing Suehiro again is that Shiramine and Cerax 6K are the very same thing as well.

 

[Garm]

The New Cerax might be the same as the Shiramine, but the old Cerax 6k was/is a different colour at least.

https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/category/ceraxseries/
Bottom of the page.

 

[ModRQC]

https://www.suehiro-toishi.com/en/category/ceraxseries/
Top of the same page, click on More under the New Cerax 6K, scroll down a notch. Both it and the Shiramine are snow white stones.

Beige-rose coloring of the old Cerax 6000 - coloring of any stone in general - is not strictly speaking an effect of the recipe, since they can give these pretty much any color they want up to a point. Still you're right, it could very well indicate they were a different recipe, since I don't see much point in not just producing a bunch of the same stone and print them/package them differently.

Nor is the New Cerax similar white coloring than Shiramine any proof of my point neither.

 

[JBroida]

for what its worth, coloring to ceramic stones does have an impact on performance and feel. Coloring in resinoid and magesia does not impact performance at all.

 

[ModRQC]

for what its worth, coloring to ceramic stones does have an impact on performance and feel. Coloring in resinoid and magesia does not impact performance at all.

Interesting for sure.

Can you expand a bit on why?

 

[JBroida]

yeah... in magnesia and resinoid stones, they are fired at lower terms and dies and coloring agents work. Ceramic stones are fired at higher temps, where those colors burn off. Chemical additions create color changes (i.e. cobalt for blue stones), and those chemicals tend to effect performance in more significant ways. You can certainly make changes to colors, but they just happen to change the way stones work by effecting the hardness, wear resistance, and tactile feel of the binder.

 

[ModRQC]

Thank you Jon!

Makes me wonder how much of this Shapton R&D’d with creating the SP colorful lineup.

 

[Steampunk]

I have the orange Suehiro 6K... Great stone (Cuts a lot of different steels, well balanced characteristics in terms of cutting speed, polishing/kasumi, nice feel, etc. Just really solid, and consistent.), but not the edge I'm looking for. If you're really careful, you can maintain bite on this stone with some steels and geometries, but you're always one bad stroke away from having the edge lose that balance of sharpness and bite you've been fighting for.

Probably the best synth finisher for ZDP-189 I've tried... On more common steels (AUS-8, 14C28N, SG2/R2, Ginsan, SLD, Aogami, Shirogami, etc.), though, I find it creates a somewhat 'bland' edge most of the time. Nothing you can complain about, but a bit 'meh' compared to some other stones. Not polished enough for use on really delicate things, and not toothy enough to be a good 'workaday' edge.

Not as polished as what a Shapton or Naniwa edge hovering around this grit would be, but also not as toothy as some other 6K's I've tried.

Alas, I cannot compare the various Suehiro 6K's to each other.

 

[ModRQC]

I have the orange Suehiro 6K... Great stone (Cuts a lot of different steels, well balanced characteristics in terms of cutting speed, polishing/kasumi, nice feel, etc. Just really solid, and consistent.), but not the edge I'm looking for. If you're really careful, you can maintain bite on this stone with some steels and geometries, but you're always one bad stroke away from having the edge lose that balance of sharpness and bite you've been fighting for.

Probably the best synth finisher for ZDP-189 I've tried... On more common steels (AUS-8, 14C28N, SG2/R2, Ginsan, SLD, Aogami, Shirogami, etc.), though, I find it creates a somewhat 'bland' edge most of the time. Nothing you can complain about, but a bit 'meh' compared to some other stones. Not polished enough for use on really delicate things, and not toothy enough to be a good 'workaday' edge.

Not as polished as what a Shapton or Naniwa edge hovering around this grit would be, but also not as toothy as some other 6K's I've tried.

Alas, I cannot compare the various Suehiro 6K's to each other.

Sounds a whole lot like an edge refined too much on Rika, so strangely it makes physical sense to me even though I didn’t get to try any Suehiro nor any other stone in 6K yet.