Suggestions for 150mm Petty For Using Home and Restaurant

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demirtasem

demirtasem

KKF Supporting Member
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
218
Reaction score
167
Location
Seattle
LOCATION
What country are you in?
in the States

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
150mm Petty

Are you right or left handed?
Right Handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Either yo or wa handle is fine.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
150mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
Either Carbon, Stainless, San Mai, whatever best fits.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
Sometimes I'm gonna use it for dirty works. So cheaper is better. My limit would be $150 probably ( I can stretch it to $200)

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
%70 home, %30 restaurant

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Mostly peeling/slicing/chopping veggies, mincing garlic
Occasionally trimming meat/silver skin, separate chicken joints

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Replacing Misono UX10 180mm Gyuto and Tojiro DP 120mm Petty

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Slicing and push/pull

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
I don't want to feel sorry about beating on it, and I want to be able to get it sharp easily.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
Well, for me mono steel would be better. Not sure, open for suggestions

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
Not picky

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
It would be better thin and flat

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
I can sharpen it. But I would be glad that it shouldn't brittle much. I hate chips

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Korin HiSoft cutting board. BUT sometimes I have to work on plastic commercial type boards too.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
I do

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
I'm trying to learn more reading KKF posts.

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
I have Atoma140, Cerax320, Chosera 800 and 3000 and leather strop. Not sure need anything else.


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
(I'm summarizing here)

I'm at the edge of a serious decision. For couple weeks I'm thinking of selling all the knives I have and start using only three knives. (Maybe going crazy in pandemic) One baby (TF Denka), one beater (not sure but a Mac) and a petty.

The petty is important because I'm mostly gonna travel with two knives and sometimes it will take some responsibility of beater knife. (Using on plastic board, separate chicken. In short using at line.)

I was thinking mono steel would be perfect. Thin blade, slicing onions, mincing garlic, peeling veggies etc.
White#2 (Konosuke HD or a KS) would be good but not sure it's a good fit for my needs. Would it be brittle? I really hate chipping. Another idea can be Misono Carbon or 440, Masamoto VG?

I don't have any experience with R2, Ginsan or Blue#2 knives. I think they have higher HRC's for the task. And I'm sure I don't want VG10 steel in my life again. So what would be your suggestions?

Thank you.
 
Why do you want mono steel again?

Your request for a knife that is thin but robust/ won't chip is a bit contradictory. which one do you want to prioritise?

I do worry a little about simple steels' edge retention in a pro environment when being used with acidic foods like onion, garlic.

Use on a plastic board implies you'll need abrasion resistance. Use separating chicken implies you'll need toughness unless you are better at avoiding bony contact than me (which wouldn't be hard, admittedly). Hard to do both of these in one knife. Maybe something semistainless? Yoshikane SKD? Shame that Sukenari doesn't do YXR7 in any shorter length than 210. Would be ideal for this application.
 
Himm, let me try to correct. What I meant was not thick spine. I didn't mean thin behind edge. But yes, abrasion resistance and little toughness would be perfect. But if separating chicken confuses a lot, I can say that it's gonna be 10-20 percent of job. So we can ignore that.
 
Nemo said:
Maybe something semistainless? Yoshikane SKD? Shame that Sukenari doesn't do YXR7 in any shorter length than 210. Would be ideal for this application.
Click to expand...

And thank you for suggestion. I heard Yoshikane a lot, but don't know SKD tool steel. Where would you put in between other steels?
 
Nemo said:
It's kinda like saying "Only 10-20% of my driving is off road, but we can ignore that. I'll still buy a Ferrari".
Click to expand...

I disagree. It means I can find another solution to do that specific task. Cutting veggies are more important.

Nemo said:
Not quite sure what you are asking here. Can you ask the question in another way?
Click to expand...

Sure I can. If you compare SKD (I think this is different steel) let's say Blue#2 or White#2 or White#1 or AS what would you say about it?
 
Might also want to consider Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji (moderately thin knife; note that I've never challenged mine with breaking down a chook) or Gesshin Uraku (which I haven't used, recommending based on reputation).
 
Nemo said:
Might also want to consider Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji (moderately thin knife; note that I've never challenged mine with breaking down a chook) or Gesshin Uraku (which I haven't used, recommending based on reputation).
Click to expand...

Thank you for your help. I'm gonna search them.

Nemo said:
I do worry a little about simple steels' edge retention in a pro environment when being used with acidic foods like onion, garlic.
Click to expand...

About the question you asked above. Honestly, I have not used other steels and don't really know which steel is perfect fit for the pro environment. What kind of simple steels do you mean?
 
Last edited:
Simple steels- low and lowish alloy carbon steels such as white2 and blue2. Also AISI steels such as 1095, 52100

There are more highly alloyed carbon steels. Aogami super is probably the best known in kitchen knife circles.

Stainless steels- Steels which have enough free Cr to inhibit corrosion to the piomt that they won't rust unless you leave them wet for many hours on end. Usually 14%Cr or more. Many stainless steels are more difficult to sharpen and especially to deburr.

Semistainless steels- Have enough Cr to inhibit corrosion but not to the same extent as stainless steels. Often 4-7% Cr although SLD is ~13% and ZDP-189 is over 20% Cr (it has so much C that most of the Cr is tied up in Cr carbides and not available to inhibit corrosion). Some semistainless steels are reasonably tough.

Powder metallurgy (PM) is a fairly new method of steel production where the molten steel is sprayed into the air and solidifies as tiny grains. It was originally devloped to be able to pack more alloying elements ito a steel but has the uesful effect of reducing grain size and maybe carbide size for a particular composition. Many PM steels are semistainless or functionally semistainless but some (SG2/R2, Srs15, Srs13) are functionally stainless. Most PM steels are carbide rich and won't sustain very fine edge angles. Microbevels often help. Many are hard and brittle. Where they have a non-PM equivalent, PM steels are often a little easier to sharpen but nowhere near as easy as carbon steels.

There is a series of fundamental tradeoffs with steel. More alloying elements means more abrasion resistance (longer edge retention) but often more brittleness. It also limits the acuteness of the sharpening angle because carbides will be "pulled out" during sharpening at low angles, causing the edge to collapse. The more alloying elements (carbides), the higher the sharpening angle required to maintain edge stabilty. So simple high carbob steels like white2 will maintain a very acute edge while very highly alloyed steels like ZDP189 won't. Guess which one holds an edge longer though?
 
demirtasem said:
I disagree. It means I can find another solution to do that specific task. Cutting veggies are more important.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I thought you mentioned a hard 2-knife limit.

In that case, get a cheap 4" or 5" Vic boning knife for breaking down chook and don't go near the chook bones with your petty.
 
demirtasem said:
LOCATION
What country are you in?
in the States

KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chefs knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
150mm Petty

Are you right or left handed?
Right Handed

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Either yo or wa handle is fine.

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
150mm

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
Either Carbon, Stainless, San Mai, whatever best fits.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
Sometimes I'm gonna use it for dirty works. So cheaper is better. My limit would be $150 probably ( I can stretch it to $200)

KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
%70 home, %30 restaurant

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Mostly peeling/slicing/chopping veggies, mincing garlic
Occasionally trimming meat/silver skin, separate chicken joints

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Replacing Misono UX10 180mm Gyuto and Tojiro DP 120mm Petty

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for the common types of grips.)
Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use? (Please click on this LINK for types of cutting motions and identify the two or three most common cutting motions, in order of most used to least used.)
Slicing and push/pull

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)
I don't want to feel sorry about beating on it, and I want to be able to get it sharp easily.

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
Well, for me mono steel would be better. Not sure, open for suggestions

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
Not picky

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
It would be better thin and flat

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
I can sharpen it. But I would be glad that it shouldn't brittle much. I hate chips

KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Korin HiSoft cutting board. BUT sometimes I have to work on plastic commercial type boards too.

Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
I do

If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
I'm trying to learn more reading KKF posts.

Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
I have Atoma140, Cerax320, Chosera 800 and 3000 and leather strop. Not sure need anything else.


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
(I'm summarizing here)

I'm at the edge of a serious decision. For couple weeks I'm thinking of selling all the knives I have and start using only three knives. (Maybe going crazy in pandemic) One baby (TF Denka), one beater (not sure but a Mac) and a petty.

The petty is important because I'm mostly gonna travel with two knives and sometimes it will take some responsibility of beater knife. (Using on plastic board, separate chicken. In short using at line.)

I was thinking mono steel would be perfect. Thin blade, slicing onions, mincing garlic, peeling veggies etc.
White#2 (Konosuke HD or a KS) would be good but not sure it's a good fit for my needs. Would it be brittle? I really hate chipping. Another idea can be Misono Carbon or 440, Masamoto VG?

I don't have any experience with R2, Ginsan or Blue#2 knives. I think they have higher HRC's for the task. And I'm sure I don't want VG10 steel in my life again. So what would be your suggestions?

Thank you.
Click to expand...

A tad over your budget, but such a great line from Mazaki.
https://carbonknifeco.com/collections/mazaki/products/mazaki-white-2-kuro-nashiji-petty-150mm
 
Thank you so much for your long explanation Nemo, very much appreciated. I actually didn't know White2 and Blue2 are known as simple steels. I have some questions though. As far as I understand from your post and other posts that I read before; Blue2, BlueSuper, R2, especially ZDP189 (I don't know I can include SKD and Ginsan here?) gives me good edge retention. But I can get sharper knife with White2 (probably for shorter period of time). I hope this statement is true. What if we compare White2 with the in terms of brittleness? Can we theoretically make a statement as White2 is less brittle than the others?

I'm trying to come to the point, I used White2 and Swedish Steel before and I more impressed White2's sharpness. I was kind of cutting everything like a butter. (But I've never used it in a restaurant, especially on a plastic board.) Before I was writing here White2 steel was on top of my mind. But after your posts I started to think Ginsan, SKD and R2.


demirtasem said:
Mostly peeling/slicing/chopping veggies, mincing garlic, occasionally trimming silver skin
Click to expand...

But if I get rid of "separate chicken" from this sentence above and considering that I'm only gonna do the rest would you still suggest me the same knives or add other knives?


Nemo said:
Sorry, I thought you mentioned a hard 2-knife limit.
Click to expand...

I did mention that. But it was before I understand that it's a great risk.
 
demirtasem said:
Thank you so much for your long explanation Nemo, very much appreciated. I actually didn't know White2 and Blue2 are known as simple steels. I have some questions though. As far as I understand from your post and other posts that I read before; Blue2, BlueSuper, R2, especially ZDP189 (I don't know I can include SKD and Ginsan here?) gives me good edge retention. But I can get sharper knife with White2 (probably for shorter period of time). I hope this statement is true. What if we compare White2 with the in terms of brittleness? Can we theoretically make a statement as White2 is less brittle than the others?

I'm trying to come to the point, I used White2 and Swedish Steel before and I more impressed White2's sharpness. I was kind of cutting everything like a butter. (But I've never used it in a restaurant, especially on a plastic board.) Before I was writing here White2 steel was on top of my mind. But after your posts I started to think Ginsan, SKD and R2.
Click to expand...
In general, (assuming a good heat treatment), the more alloying elements (V, W, Mo, and to an extent, Cr), the better the abrasion resistance and the longer the edge retention. So the simplest steels like white2 (basically just Fe and C) tend to have the least abrasion resistance. Blue2 has a bit more abrasion resistance and holds an edge longer. Still really easy to sharpen and for my money, is the sweet spot in Japanese carbon steels. Ginsanko is similar to White2 but with Cr added. Those Cr carbides do add to abrasion resistance a bit. Complex alloyed stainless like SG2 has lots of hard carbides and lasts longer. ZDP189 has masses of Cr carbides and a few other carbides and has even longer edge retention.

Unless you are an accomplished sharpener, you probably won't notice the difference in sharpness between any of these steels. Some of the improved sharpness (at the limit) is due to the smaller grain and carbide size in simpler steels (assuming, once again, a good HT), but some of it you have to actively persue by sharpening at a more acute angle.

As has been mentioned, all of these steels are fine for kitchen use and yes, you can EASILY make SG2 sharp enough to shave- It's just that a simpler steel CAN be made even sharper- but only if you know what you are doing.

Toughness (resistance to breaking or chipping) is probably even more complex than sharpness and edge retention. Toughness generally increases with smaller grain size and carbide size. It generally decreases with hardness. The heat treament also plays a big role (and not just the tempering).

I refer you to @Larrin 's excelent website, knifesteelnerds.com for some excellent articles, many containing original research on the various chatacteristics of various steels (abrasion resistance, corrosion resistance, sharpenability, edge retention, toughness as well as other characteristics that you probably hadn't thought of). zknives.com also contains some useful resources on steel. It's also worth watchin the lecture on steel in JKI's sharpening series.
 
demirtasem said:
But if I get rid of "separate chicken" from this sentence above and considering that I'm only gonna do the rest would you still suggest me the same knives or add other knives?
Click to expand...

If you will be using it in a pro environment where there is time pressure, corrosion resistance is probably important. As is edge retention, especially if using on plastic boards. In that case, I'd probably suggest a PM (SG2/R2 or SRS15) knife. If you find it chippy, put a microbevel on it. Fixed.

Great examples are Gesshin Kagero (unfortunatley out of stock currently), Ryusen Blazen (I think Jon is getting some more in soon, you could ask him), or Kurosaki Shizuku (in stock on KnS Au site).

If a santoku woulld be suitible for this role, there are a few more options in stock at various places.
 
I have the Maz. It has a very fine tip and edge. A bit of height, and weight at the spine. It's a great petty. Mazaki shirogami seems to hold an edge fairly well. You wont be doing much chopping with a petty, more like detail slicing and mincing, so even on a plastic board it should fair well.

It is reactive, though.
 
Nemo said:
If you will be using it in a pro environment where there is time pressure, corrosion resistance is probably important. As is edge retention, especially if using on plastic boards. In that case, I'd probably suggest a PM (SG2/R2 or SRS15) knife. If you find it chippy, put a microbevel on it. Fixed.

Great examples are Gesshin Kagero (unfortunatley out of stock currently), Ryusen Blazen (I think Jon is getting some more in soon, you could ask him), or Kurosaki Shizuku (in stock on KnS Au site).

If a santoku would be suitible for this role, there are a few more options in stock at various places.
Click to expand...


Thanks. I'm gonna ask Jon the availability, probably his opinions too. I don't think santoku would be best choice, because I want to be able to do some work in my hands.
 
I'm making a list here to see easily with the ones you suggested:


SKD
Yoshikane SKD Nashiji / $210

R2/SG2
Ryusen Blazen / $209
Gesshin Kagero / $180
Takamura Migaki / $130
Takamura HSPS / $210
Kurosaki Shizuku / $190

White#2
Mazaki White#2 Kuro Nashiji / $165
Gesshin Uraku / $125

Blue#2
Tanaka Blue2 Nashiji / $98

Ginsan
Tanaka Nashiji / $164

Stainless / Semi-Stainless
Ashi Ginga / $162
Gesshin Uraku / $140
MAC Pro / $70
Kanehide TK - $77



Edit: It's interesting that no Blue2 suggestions yet.
Edit2: Tanaka Blue#2 added.
 
Last edited:
parbaked said:
I use a Misono Swedish carbon 150mm petty for this stuff.
If you want a stainless beater, the MAC PKF-50 is another good utility knife:
https://www.epicedge.com/shopexd.asp?id=83643
Click to expand...
Do you find the edge retention on the Mac is adequate for pro use? (this is a genuine Qn- I'm a home cook and can only tangentially extrapolate my experience to pro use).
 
demirtasem said:
Ginsan
Tanaka Nashiji / $230

Edit: It's interesting that no Blue2 suggestions yet.
Click to expand...
Tanaka Ginsan Nashiji is 164 usd at KnS Oz. That's 230 Au micro-pesos.

The Tanaka Blue2 Nashiji could go on your list if you don't want stainless core (it's stainless clad).
 
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