Suggestions needed for beginning stone (or W&D sandpaper) kit

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J

JWK1

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I have too many knives that need sharpening attention.

1. Carbonext 270mm Gyuto. This looks like it came with a 25 degree bevel. I have tried working on it with a King 1000/6000 stone I got as a gift a few years ago, but the progress I made after 20 minutes was so little, I just gave up and put the knife away. It would seem to me I need something that can cut much faster.

2. Various carbon cleavers. A couple of older ones off of the bay that need both minor profiling and beveling. My favorite right now is an older Dexter cleaver. I have it acceptably sharp, but someone previously had sharpened it so that the profile is uneven. I would like to fix this.

3. Kanehide ps60 210mm gyuto. From what I've been able to tell, this is rumoured to be some kind of AEB-L steel. I have this in an "OK" kind of sharp state, but I know I could do better. I don't know if it needs a more acute bevel or not. I got this from the one-who-shall-not-be-named place. I'm just throwing this out there in case someone here knows of a certain approach I should take with getting this knife really sharp. I bought this for my wife to use. 210 is a bit small for me, but she won't use it and just keeps going back to her crappy Henckles santoku. I hate trying to sharpen this thing, which brings us to...

4. Henckles santoku. The King 1000 stone doesn't touch this thing. I need to know what to use on this type of steel effectively. I have various other Victorinox that I also need to sharpen for my wife and children (now out of the house with dull knives of their own).

So that's the run down. My first priority is the Carbonext, so I'm looking for advice on the best kind of stones to use for this type of metal, and what the ideal bevel angle would be. This knife will be used primarily for slicing up meat for sausage making (thread in the kitchen knife forum), so lots and lots of slicing of raw meat, very little contact with the board, and no chopping of any kind. I'm only mentioning this in thinking I might get away with a more acute angle than would be generally used with this steel.

My immediate priority is for bevel cutting and sharpening. Re-profiling and thinning will follow.

Budget: I am not overly restricted, but I would like to lean toward the "best value" side of things.

Questions:
1. How much do I need an Atoma 140? From the searching I've done so far on this site, it looks like if I'm using a lot of coarser stones for profiling and cutting new bevels, I will need the atoma 140 a lot more than if I was just doing maintenance sharpening. If I was to cheap out for a bit, what grade of W&D sandpaper would I use for flattening?
2. I've done a search on using W&D for coarse work, but I really can't determing the pros and cons of stones or W&D. Speed? Ease of use? Aside from budget, what are the issues here? Dave Martell was loving using W&D a couple of years ago, so it can't be budget.
3. Is the Carbonext semi-stainless "tool steel" significantly different to sharpen than plain old high carbon steel? Easier to sharpen than the typical Henckles, Wustoff, Victorinox steel? Just wondering if I should start with the cleavers to get a handle on things. I don't want to screw it up.

Thanks for any help and suggestions.
 
Why wouldn't the King 1000 work for Victo/Henkels? They're nothing very difficult to sharpen. Deburring is more involving, but still you can get a Victorinox quite keen for how soft it is, especially if you thin and/or use a relief bevel.

Where are you located?

You need to revise your sharpening more than anything else I think. Don't buy anything yet, learn to do fine with your combo King.

Use a magic marker to paint the edge bevel, look where you are abrading steel and from there what adjustment needs to be done to get to the edge will be obvious.
 
JWK1 said:
Questions:
1. How much do I need an Atoma 140? From the searching I've done so far on this site, it looks like if I'm using a lot of coarser stones for profiling and cutting new bevels, I will need the atoma 140 a lot more than if I was just doing maintenance sharpening. If I was to cheap out for a bit, what grade of W&D sandpaper would I use for flattening?
Click to expand...

If you want to cheap out, you can do like me and use some silicon carbide (SiC) tumbling grit somewhere in the range of 60-120 and a piece of flat-ish tile from your local home improvement store for $1. It's a little messier than using a diamond plate, but still relatively quick to clean up.
 
For the steels you describe, a Norton Crystolon or India oil stone or combination stone should be fine to set the bevels. They also wear slower than many course water stones. Just another option.
 
ModRQC said:
Why wouldn't the King 1000 work for Victo/Henkels? They're nothing very difficult to sharpen. Deburring is more involving, but still you can get a Victorinox quite keen for how soft it is, especially if you thin and/or use a relief bevel.

Where are you located?

You need to revise your sharpening more than anything else I think. Don't buy anything yet, learn to do fine with your combo King.

Use a magic marker to paint the edge bevel, look where you are abrading steel and from there what adjustment needs to be done to get to the edge will be obvious.
Click to expand...

I'm in the U.S.

I would like to focus on the Carbonext initially. It really needs a new bevel cut and I really want to use that knife.

However, I will revisit that Henckles and see if I can get somewhere with the King 1000 and a sharpie. It's been a number of years since I've tried.
 
To answer question nr.1, IMO an Atoma 140 or another coarse diamond plate is one of the best investments you can make.
It makes everything so much quicker and easier. It's also mess free compared to many other options. Working with a dished stone is really working against yourself, especially when cutting a new edge bevel, and King stones dish quicker than many other stones. I still like them a lot, and your 1k will have no problem with any of the steels you mention. Just flatten regularly.

As for question nr.3, my guess, after sharpening one for my brother a couple of times, is that the CarboNext is made from a pretty basic semi-stainless steel. Maybe one of the SK steels with some added chromium, or something along those lines. It sharpens very easily, much like the steel Kanehide use in their TK line.

If I lost all my sharpening gear today, the first thing I would buy was a good medium grit stone, and the second would be a coarse diamond plate.
 
spaceconvoy said:
View attachment 106669
Found my extra-coarse stone solution. Makes me wonder why I've spent any time or energy on stones below 500 grit.

If you use a shapton or another 70mm wide stone as a base, you can get 4 pieces from a US standard 9x11" sheet of paper. A few drops of water and it sticks well to a stone, don't see the need for an expensive sandpaper holder. @inferno was right in another thread that you need to keep the surface of the sandpaper dry for it to work, but it really moves metal. The main downside is the need to wear a respirator (zoom in on the edge of the cleaver), and probably a higher cost over the years, but seems worth it to me.

There's some nice symmetry between the cubitron's grit range topping out at 400, and the atoma 400 working well for all my other stones. Needing only one expensive diamond plate for flattening, and keeping the GS500 as my coarsest stone for regular maintenance thinning, sandpaper becomes a nice cheap and effective solution for my minimal reprofiling needs as a home cook. I'm becoming convinced that the GS500 is the coarsest stone worth keeping, but this extra-coarse stone search has been a fun diversion.
Click to expand...
Quoting my own post from another thread. I've given up on coarse stones below the Shapton Glass 500 and now use a progression of 3M Cubitron sandpaper. The sandpaper is faster than stones, and the only real downside is the dusty mess it makes (wear a mask), and maybe slightly higher lifetime cost, though initially you'll pay much less.

For minor thinning like you described, I'd recommend a progression from 120 - 220 - 400 grit. I started with 80 grit but I think it's probably overkill unless you're trying to change the profile of a knife. 120 should also be a good grit to flatten your stones with. I haven't tried SiC powder, but I don't get the logic of using loose grit between two surfaces if you're trying to flatten one of them. Eventually your base is going to dish and become useless. Sandpaper is the next logical step - affix that same abrasive to a backing so it doesn't abrade the surface you're working on.

Cubitron is very good, though I've only compared it to very basic house-brand stuff from Harbor Freight. I flattened a roughly quarried Ikarashi from JNS, removing over 3mm of thickness with one sheet of 80 grit Cubitron. While I could tell it had lost some of its initial speed, I could have kept using it. You'll appreciate a diamond plate eventually, but if you're trying to put off the investment, $15 for three packs of sandpaper will be more than enough for all your knife thinning and stone flattening needs.
 
JWK1 said:
I'm in the U.S.

I would like to focus on the Carbonext initially. It really needs a new bevel cut and I really want to use that knife.

However, I will revisit that Henckles and see if I can get somewhere with the King 1000 and a sharpie. It's been a number of years since I've tried.
Click to expand...

A look on JCK tells me your Carbonext possibly has an edge ground asymmetrically, and is neither so thick nor so thin behind the edge. So if on the non cutting side you see almost no edge bevel, and a rather thick one on the cutting side, you need to pay heed using a higher angle with very light pressure, or using less strokes, when sharpening on the left side - or yes, cut an entirely new bevel on the left side to match the right, but there's a lot more involved into that than you think, and from the perspective of your query I sure don't advise it to you, especially with the King Combo your only weapon.

Otherwise it should not prove too difficult to sharpen if you respect the asymmetrical edge - and actually reach the apex on your stone, which I suspect from your questions that you don't - entirely - get to it.
 
spaceconvoy said:
Quoting my own post from another thread. I've given up on coarse stones below the Shapton Glass 500 and now use a progression of 3M Cubitron sandpaper. The sandpaper is faster than stones, and the only real downside is the dusty mess it makes (wear a mask), and maybe slightly higher lifetime cost, though initially you'll pay much less.

For minor thinning like you described, I'd recommend a progression from 120 - 220 - 400 grit. I started with 80 grit but I think it's probably overkill unless you're trying to change the profile of a knife. 120 should also be a good grit to flatten your stones with. I haven't tried SiC powder, but I don't get the logic of using loose grit between two surfaces if you're trying to flatten one of them. Eventually your base is going to dish and become useless. Sandpaper is the next logical step - affix that same abrasive to a backing so it doesn't abrade the surface you're working on.

Cubitron is very good, though I've only compared it to very basic house-brand stuff from Harbor Freight. I flattened a roughly quarried Ikarashi from JNS, removing over 3mm of thickness with one sheet of 80 grit Cubitron. While I could tell it had lost some of its initial speed, I could have kept using it. You'll appreciate a diamond plate eventually, but if you're trying to put off the investment, $15 for three packs of sandpaper will be more than enough for all your knife thinning and stone flattening needs.
Click to expand...
Do you use a whole sheet, or cut it into smaller pieces?
 
tostadas said:
Do you use a whole sheet, or cut it into smaller pieces?
Click to expand...
I cut each sheet down to Shapton's standard stone size, 210x70mm. You can get 4 pieces from the regular 11x9" sheets they sell at Home Depot. I set up my 500 glass stone like usual, add a few drops of water to the surface, and the rubberized backing of the sandpaper sticks to it pretty well. Just don't get the surface of the sandpaper wet itself. I like it this way because the height and dimensions feel very familiar and natural.
 
If you decide to upgrade your stones. I recommend the chosera 800, and an atoma 140 to start. You can't use the 6000 side of the king as well, if you want a finer edge.

You can get anything you need done as far as sharpening, and reprofiling go with just those. Polishing, is a whole different story though.

I find that the chosera does very well on anything but supersteels. So I think you would do well with that.
 
I've been trying cheapo sandpaper recently and didn't get far with P400 so moved to P240 which went better. One thing that slows me down is that it needs to be edge trailing so that the paper doesn't get cut and makes the speed gain gap need to be larger vs scrubby motions on my Shapton pro 1000.

Which cubitron type is the correct one? My searching is showing the hookit version.
 
Dull_Apex said:
Which cubitron type is the correct one? My searching is showing the hookit version.
Click to expand...

The hook it one could work. Especially if you have some velcro you can stick to a counter or table or something.

For a slightly cheaper, more accessible sandpaper I've found that duragold works very well when used dry. The professional grade wetandry 3m (it's the same color purple as the cubitron) is better if you plan to use water.

I've also heard Norton makes some very good sandpaper, but I have never tried any.
 
Norton JB8 and a bottle of laxative grade mineral oil from the grocery store and you're good to go for years. You can even use the box as a holder if you have to.
 
I just wanted to give a follow-up report from the results brought about by the suggestions and thoughts given in this thread.

I didn't end up buying any stones right now, but this thread brought some things to light and had me go on a major research jag regarding the different facets of hand sharpening.

I bought W&D sandpaper from my local Ace Hardware in 220, 320, 400, and a drywall sanding screen in 120. I dug out my circular glass I ordered with my Edge Pro years ago. It came with a nice rubber bumper that fits around the circumference so it stays put.

I started with my wife's Henckles santoku. I cut a strip on 220 to fit my King stone. I cut it so that the length of the strip is the width of the full size sheet, 9 inches. This enabled me to tuck one end under one end of the stone. With the paper and the stone wet, the sandpaper did not move. I was able to sharpen back and forth just like on a stone. Things did not go well. Progress was not good. Then I remembered what Garm had said about working against yourself with a dished stone. This King is the first water stone I've ever had or used, and I've never done anything to flatten it. I've barely used it (I thought, but my son also probably got into it with his various pocket knives at some point) so I didn't give it consideration. Anyway, I did the pencil markings and put it on the glass with the 120 drywall screen. It was far more dished that I thought it would be. Big surprise for me. The screen was slow. I tried some 220 and that went much faster. Then things progressed.

I got my wife's knife reasonably sharp, then went to my Carbonext 270mm gyuto. That went far easier and got much sharper. I won't go into any more details, but I learned a lot today.

Sandpaper works, and is much better than nothing. Stones are much nicer to use, but I'm really glad I have a way of getting my knives really sharp until I can get some more equipment. I think my first purchase will be a stone or two. My second will be an Atoma 140. My third will be coarser stones if I still think I need them. Time will tell.

So thanks for all the suggestions and thoughts. Even though I didn't end up doing what I thought I would immediately, I learned a lot about sharpening and learned what I needed to research. This has turned out really well.
 
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