Sujihiki

[IsoJ]

I'm a bit suji stupid. I've sold a couple and I think I'm down to 5. That does not include cimitars, or "butcher" knives, The group includes a Gengetsu, stainless clad white, an AEBL DT, and a Heijii carbon, all in 270mm. Also a 285mm Wat Ame Kintaro and a 300mm Stainless Kono.

The Kono, 140g, (and still 300mm) is the lightest of the bunch. It will cut most anything but is a little flexi. It has found a home as a knife for cutting wedding cake at catered events where every mm counts.

The Gengetsu, 155g and DT, 150g, are at their best with smaller roasts, tenderloin and raw protiens. Both have a little flex. They are quite versatile, either could be your "only" suji but would not be my first choice for cooked protiens.

The Wat, 209 glorious grams. My favorite of the bunch. I could sell the others and still be a happy camper - but who's gonna sell a Gengetsu or a Devin? It's a stiffy in any application yet nimble enough for detail work.

The Heiji is the biggest dog of the bunch. 229 gr. Between the grind and the weight, stuff just falls apart. Best of the bunch for making big things into little things. Not long on nimble. Not a subtle blade. Panda sold me this one (at a great price) a couple years ago and I still thank him every time I use it.

All this is leading to a point. I find the weight on the suji to be almost as important as the grind. Shop for one from a regarded maker. Make sure it's thin behind edge but not necessarily at the spine. No lasers unless it's your second (at least) suji. If it's your only, I'll suggest 165g as a lower limit. In a well built knife the weight and amount of flex will correspond pretty closely. And flex is not a good thing. 270mm is a good length. I've not had to cut anything with a 270 that caused me to wish I had a 300.

Had a SIH that I liked but was a little too light for my preference. Had a Toyoma, excellent knife, that someone wanted it more than I did. Same thing with a Wat Pro. Next suji will probably be an HSC Zwear. Great application for a steel that holds an edge forever. Want to try a Gesshin Heiji for the steel. May have to get on Tillman's list and beg for a Nilox one day.

And a little porn for those stuck at home.

Marko scimitar
Haburn "Butcher"
The Wat
Heiji
DT
Kono
Gengetsu

View attachment 75597

Thank you for the input. I am kind of set my mind for 300mm, I am only using it at home so the lenght isnt a problem. My knife skills arent anywhere close for detailed work yet, so heftier and stiffer blade like wat and heji could be good choice.

 

[Gregmega]

I’m gonna tell you the opposite. Shorter sujis are great for doing fabrication and used as a line knife for slicing proteins on pick up. I also use shorter knives in general, so I may be void from the convo. Not to be smug, but in the right hands a 240 suji can do more than 3 knives can, let alone a 300 suji. (My sushi friends may strongly disagree). Either way it kinda depends on what the goals are- if you’re out to get a flashy piece, 300. If you’re out to cook, you never need more than a 270 (convince me otherwise). Great sujis ime- Wat, shigehiro, kagekiyo, fujiama, Maz, ahh man, the list goes on. Love me a good suji.

*edit
*just noticed you’re using at home- go with a katana and dance like no one’s watching

 

[IsoJ]

I've not spent the hundreds of hours behind various Sujihiki that pros do... However, I've spent enough time with my 240mm Zakuri Suji to have learned a few things from it...

1. You can almost never have a big enough Suji. Don't waste your time on 240; go 270+.

2. If your goal is to achieve paper thin slices for deli-style sandwiches, thick, wide bevel knives steer too much to make this possible. Better off with an asymmetrically ground blade for this purpose. Furthermore, heavy wide bevel Suji's aren't the most versatile knives if you want to use them for non-meaty things, as they wedge ferociously due to lacking the height to compensate for their thickness. However, they do work well for thicker portioning cuts in roasts, and suchlike.

3. Hot proteins, especially red meat, can actually have quite a profound effect on the edge retention of simpler carbon steels. Poly-boards, also… For this reason, I actually think Suji’s are one of the applications where very wear resistant steels are quite suitable.

4. As for edges, when cutting red meat, I like the edge to be as coarse as I can get it and still deburr. I finish my Zakuri on a Naniwa Pro 600, typically. Poultry, I can get away with it being a bit finer; 1-2K. If I was cutting fish, I’d take it to 6K+, but this knife doesn’t feel ideal for that application.

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk

This helps a lot.

1. I am leaning towards 300mm
2. For now the suji comes mainly for meat cutting and no necessery a paper thin slices. 3. I like sharpening and I cook at home mainly so I dont have to put too much weight for the retention. I didn't think that red meat has such an impact on edge retention..
4. I am definitly going to play and find out what grits/finish works the best. The 600grit kind of makes sence with the red meat.

 

[IsoJ]

I’m gonna tell you the opposite. Shorter sujis are great for doing fabrication and used as a line knife for slicing proteins on pick up. I also use shorter knives in general, so I may be void from the convo. Not to be smug, but in the right hands a 240 suji can do more than 3 knives can, let alone a 300 suji. (My sushi friends may strongly disagree). Either way it kinda depends on what the goals are- if you’re out to get a flashy piece, 300. If you’re out to cook, you never need more than a 270 (convince me otherwise). Great sujis ime- Wat, shigehiro, kagekiyo, fujiama, Maz, ahh man, the list goes on. Love me a good suji.

*edit
*just noticed you’re using at home- go with a katana and dance like no one’s watching

Yes, I don't have to worry about the space,speed and efficiency as a home cook and I can use as many knives with one meal prep as I like . I like longer knives in general(still in search for the right 210-220 gyuto thou) so maybe that is why I lean for 300 suji.

 

[bahamaroot]

When it comes to a suji, go big or go home....

 

[labor of love]

As far as I can tell, the most important determining factor for edge retention is the repeated banging against the board dulling the edge. Patina forming does matter some too.
Because you’re hardly going to banging a suji against your board I usually go with a steel that’s super easy to sharpen or a more pure steel for sujihiki.

 

[aszma]

I’m gonna tell you the opposite. Shorter sujis are great for doing fabrication and used as a line knife for slicing proteins on pick up. I also use shorter knives in general, so I may be void from the convo. Not to be smug, but in the right hands a 240 suji can do more than 3 knives can, let alone a 300 suji. (My sushi friends may strongly disagree). Either way it kinda depends on what the goals are- if you’re out to get a flashy piece, 300. If you’re out to cook, you never need more than a 270 (convince me otherwise). Great sujis ime- Wat, shigehiro, kagekiyo, fujiama, Maz, ahh man, the list goes on. Love me a good suji.

*edit
*just noticed you’re using at home- go with a katana and dance like no one’s watching

mhhh please tell me more about the power of a 240mm suji. Ive been looking at 210-240mm suji/petties for a while now but my biggest fear is always buying a knife i think ill use a lot but end up never using and having to resell later

 

[soigne_west]

mhhh please tell me more about the power of a 240mm suji. Ive been looking at 210-240mm suji/petties for a while now but my biggest fear is always buying a knife i think ill use a lot but end up never using and having to resell later

I carry both a 250 and 300 in my bag every day to work (when I’m actually working) and have to agree with Greg. I almost never use the 300. I find the the shorter size to be far more versatile.

 

[NO ChoP!]

Years back there was a big push for 210 sujis as board knives. I picked up a Kono HD, and hated it as a board knife, but absolutely loved it as a meat fab knife. I could clean a tenderloin and filet a salmon with it. I still have a 210 Ittinomonn that I use occasionally, but I lean towards pettys now with tenderloins, and usually just use a gyuto or funayuki with fish. (I also have a deba, but I find the fish on the eastern coast to be much softer. I like the deba for firm fish.)

 

[Nagakin]

I'm weird and choose a tall suji over a gyuto in most cases. My favorite is Yamamoto's SG2. 44.5mm tall, 4mm at the heel with a beautiful taper. It's the only knife I keep that doesn't see heavy use (damascus is from Asai).

I prefer less height for less blade contact with food, it's worth the trade-off to me and keeps my technique sharp. Unfortunately, 43-46mm is a dead zone since most people don't push the extremes of finger clearance.

 

[Steampunk]

3. I like sharpening and I cook at home mainly so I dont have to put too much weight for the retention. I didn't think that red meat has such an impact on edge retention..

Raw red meat isn't so much the issue... It's the hot blood and juices that seem to do a number on basic carbon steels like Shirogami #2. When slicing a cooked, and rested roast or steak, I started struggling after my first few slices using knives made from Shirogami and 10xx series steels due to erosion of the edge. As I cook at home and like sharpening as well, I wouldn't mind less retention either... If such a knife needed sharpening at the end of a single big night of slicing, I wouldn't mind. However, if a knife cannot get through a job without being resharpened at least once partway through, it's a problem even for me. Cutting hot, juicy red meat creates a beautiful patina fairly quickly, though...

On raw meat, I do use simple carbon without much hesitation. If you're butchering, then what I just said doesn't apply much. If you're portioning cooked proteins, though, it's something I'd think hard about... It's like relying on basic carbon for cutting citrus. It'll do it; just maybe not long enough if it's a big job.

I use poly boards for meat, and wood for veg. Whilst one isn't 'banging' the edge of a Suji when slicing meat, one does slide it along the surface of the board to finish the cut. It does make board contact; you're not cutting in the air. Poly is harder than end-grain wood on an edge. However, the acid-erosion of the edge is the more aggressive of the two factors in the situation I have outlined.

I hope this clarifies my comment... It may have seemed strange.

- Steampunk

 

[labor of love]

Years back there was a big push for 210 sujis as board knives. I picked up a Kono HD, and hated it as a board knife, but absolutely loved it as a meat fab knife. I could clean a tenderloin and filet a salmon with it. I still have a 210 Ittinomonn that I use occasionally, but I lean towards pettys now with tenderloins, and usually just use a gyuto or funayuki with fish. (I also have a deba, but I find the fish on the eastern coast to be much softer. I like the deba for firm fish.)

Yes kono HD 210mm was the knife to own in 2013-2014 lol.
I’ve owned several and I liked them but they just never saw much use with what I do.

 

[IsoJ]

Raw red meat isn't so much the issue... It's the hot blood and juices that seem to do a number on basic carbon steels like Shirogami #2. When slicing a cooked, and rested roast or steak, I started struggling after my first few slices using knives made from Shirogami and 10xx series steels due to erosion of the edge. As I cook at home and like sharpening as well, I wouldn't mind less retention either... If such a knife needed sharpening at the end of a single big night of slicing, I wouldn't mind. However, if a knife cannot get through a job without being resharpened at least once partway through, it's a problem even for me. Cutting hot, juicy red meat creates a beautiful patina fairly quickly, though...

On raw meat, I do use simple carbon without much hesitation. If you're butchering, then what I just said doesn't apply much. If you're portioning cooked proteins, though, it's something I'd think hard about... It's like relying on basic carbon for cutting citrus. It'll do it; just maybe not long enough if it's a big job.

I use poly boards for meat, and wood for veg. Whilst one isn't 'banging' the edge of a Suji when slicing meat, one does slide it along the surface of the board to finish the cut. It does make board contact; you're not cutting in the air. Poly is harder than end-grain wood on an edge. However, the acid-erosion of the edge is the more aggressive of the two factors in the situation I have outlined.

I hope this clarifies my comment... It may have seemed strange.

- Steampunk

Thank you for the clarification, it makes much more sense to me now. I use Hasegawa boards with protein. Maybe a stupid question but have you noticed any change of the acid-erosion after stable patina has build up or is it about the same because the "bare edge" don't have the patina? I have several knives in my "home rotation" and that is why I havent even thought/noticed about the edge retention more than steel, board, sharpening issue.

 

[Cliff]

I cook at home... I'll echo the preference for big knives. Do I need a 300 suji? Well no, but it is nice. I'm only cooking for small groups, so I don't worry about edge retention. I like it thin. I also have a Ginga 210 petty as a utility knife, which I reach for all the time.

ETA, If I'm planning ahead enough to sharpen with a task in mind, I'll leave it at 2K or 3K for meat, 6K for general use, and higher for fish 10K synthetic or polishing natural stone depending on whim.

 

[Chesterc]

Raw red meat isn't so much the issue... It's the hot blood and juices that seem to do a number on basic carbon steels like Shirogami #2. When slicing a cooked, and rested roast or steak, I started struggling after my first few slices using knives made from Shirogami and 10xx series steels due to erosion of the edge. As I cook at home and like sharpening as well, I wouldn't mind less retention either... If such a knife needed sharpening at the end of a single big night of slicing, I wouldn't mind. However, if a knife cannot get through a job without being resharpened at least once partway through, it's a problem even for me. Cutting hot, juicy red meat creates a beautiful patina fairly quickly, though...

On raw meat, I do use simple carbon without much hesitation. If you're butchering, then what I just said doesn't apply much. If you're portioning cooked proteins, though, it's something I'd think hard about... It's like relying on basic carbon for cutting citrus. It'll do it; just maybe not long enough if it's a big job.

I use poly boards for meat, and wood for veg. Whilst one isn't 'banging' the edge of a Suji when slicing meat, one does slide it along the surface of the board to finish the cut. It does make board contact; you're not cutting in the air. Poly is harder than end-grain wood on an edge. However, the acid-erosion of the edge is the more aggressive of the two factors in the situation I have outlined.

I hope this clarifies my comment... It may have seemed strange.

Crusty red meats are hard you lose the edge fairly quickly. Some said sharpening the knife to 3000 grit to help maintain the bite but I never found that useful. Instead I always reach out for a steel(during a busy service)

 

[Steampunk]

Thank you for the clarification, it makes much more sense to me now. I use Hasegawa boards with protein. Maybe a stupid question but have you noticed any change of the acid-erosion after stable patina has build up or is it about the same because the "bare edge" don't have the patina? I have several knives in my "home rotation" and that is why I havent even thought/noticed about the edge retention more than steel, board, sharpening issue.

It's not a stupid question. Strong enough acids like citrus, and hot salty beef blood seem to keep eroding the steel at a consistent rate, even after patina... This is far more aggressive than the sort of reaction one encounters with onions, peppers, etc... During normal veg prep, the patina takes the edge back a notch or two, then 'stabilizes' for a while until abrasion dulls it... Slicing a cooked steak or beef roast just keeps degrading the edge quickly and linearly. Aogami #1 or Super with a very coarse edge holds up 'alright', but not well enough that I still wouldn't question the need for a wear resistant semi or full-stainless steel for this sort of application... Particularly if catering a party, or working professionally.

Chicken and pork aren't nearly as bad as beef, but hot and juicy, are still worse than raw in terms of edge retention. Organic acids are always more aggressive when heated.

Hope this helps...

- Steampunk

 

[Steampunk]

Crusty red meats are hard you lose the edge fairly quickly. Some said sharpening the knife to 3000 grit to help maintain the bite but I never found that useful. Instead I always reach out for a steel(during a busy service)

I'd agree with your experience... For this sort of thing, with a basic carbon steel blade, a steel honing rod would be an absolute necessity. I vacillate between this solution, and having a more etch/wear resistant alloy. I dream of a Z-Wear sujihiki with an asymmetric grind like Hiromoto.

- Steampunk

 

[labor of love]

Are you guys not wiping down your blade or something after you use it?

 

[panda]

Beef juice go nom nom I eat you carbides!!

 

[Steampunk]

Are you guys not wiping down your blade or something after you use it?

I wipe almost obsessively... Typically every 3 slices on a large roast if the knife hasn't formed a stable patina yet, and don't push it much past six or eight if it has. I wash and dry carbon immediately after the job is complete.

I'm not talking about loss of bite after the job is done, and the blade sits... I'm talking about losing it during the job.

It makes me curious that you've been having such a different experience... Honestly. We're talking similar experiences, right? Hot (Just out of resting) and seasoned rare beef roast, portioning it into umpteen 1/4 to 3/8" thick slices... Your freshly sharpened Shirogami or 10XX blade doesn't lose any bite from the start to finish on that job? If you're not experiencing that, I'm curious what's the factor that makes it different for us from a scientific angle. It's an interesting question, if the factors in our experiences are identical. Both of us clearly have experiences we don't doubt. So there must be a factor that makes them different.

- Steampunk

 

[labor of love]

I think you’re losing some edge keenness from the initial cut penetrating the crispy exterior of seared/grilled meat.
I’m not saying I don’t lose any edge through repeated use.
But I don’t notice a faster deterioration of an edge from hot meat juice contact.
I could be wrong, maybe there’s something to it. But I think direct contact against a hard surface whether it’s a cutting board or crispy skin is the culprit.
For all I know maybe you’re right, or maybe it’s impact is minuscule or so negligible I just don’t notice.

 

[panda]

the hot juice weakens heat treat and makes the air around it more dense. it's like youre cutting through a piece of poly board.

- panda

 

[M1k3]

the hot juice weakens heat treat and makes the air around it more dense. it's like youre cutting through a piece of poly board.

- panda

Just run it through the dishwasher to reharden it.

 

[IsoJ]

So long story short. Pros use more the shorter one(under 300mm) because of the versatile of the blade and due to lack of space. Home cooks can use whatever they want because they aren't on o'clock. And no matter how you use it, it gets dull.

Maybe Mazaki makes 210 petty soon, that could work with the 300mm suji well

 

[bahamaroot]

I'm only a home cook but I'm with @labor of love on this one. I'll lose that initial keenness with my Shirogami #2 but it is far from dull by the time I finish thinly slicing a roast or a few steaks. I use a loaded strop on it after finishing and it's ready for the next use.

 

[M1k3]

This has been bugging me about the edge retention with red meat juices and salt. @Larrin is there any truth to edge degradation from meat juices? With or without salt (a common amount found on well seasoned meat. Not extreme levels.)

 

[daveb]

So long story short. Pros use more the shorter one(under 300mm) because of the versatile of the blade and due to lack of space. Home cooks can use whatever they want because they aren't on o'clock. And no matter how you use it, it gets dull.

Maybe Mazaki makes 210 petty soon, that could work with the 300mm suji well

That's quite the logic leap. Pro's use a 270 because it's effective. If a 300 offered an advantage the Pro would find a way to use it regardless of your imagined space constraints. You've heard from several pro's, myself included, that it does not offer that advantage.

If you want to buy a 300 then you should buy a 300 and the hell with the advice to the contrary. It's your knife, it's your money, and it should make you happy

 

[panda]

maybe he was the one that bought the 300 ikeda gyuto from bernal, it could easily be used as a suji.

 

[IsoJ]

That's quite the logic leap. Pro's use a 270 because it's effective. If a 300 offered an advantage the Pro would find a way to use it regardless of your imagined space constraints. You've heard from several pro's, myself included, that it does not offer that advantage.

If you want to buy a 300 then you should buy a 300 and the hell with the advice to the contrary. It's your knife, it's your money, and it should make you happy

Well said

 

[IsoJ]

maybe he was the one that bought the 300 ikeda gyuto from bernal, it could easily be used as a suji.

I had it in my cart but managed to fight the temptation