Takeda ....What to look for (now) to keep from getting screwed

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philipj

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The other issue with stainless San mai is its really sucks up the carbon from the core,
If I had a floppy burr issue with a stainless clad knife I would immediately be thinking carbon migration... and add a slice of pure nickel to remedy this.
Is there some reason stainless would be worse than any other low carbon reactive cladding?
 

TB_London

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Is there some reason stainless would be worse than any other low carbon reactive cladding?
AFAIK takes a lot more heat to stick them together, and migration is linked to time and temperature
 

Mynci

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In terms of forging.... its heat short... meaning it won't move much at dull red forging heats like plain mild steel and iron can... making them ideally suited to the process of forged geometry...
in terms of carbon migration. Everything in forge welding including carbon migration is an equation of time/temperature/pressure used so there are different ways to go about making the weld...and with perfectly clean and flat surfaces, forged under high pressure for more timein a perfect vacuum you could lower temperature well below liquidous... this is called non liquidous diffusion bonding... but in general stainless requires more heat and more time due to it being less thermally conductive.. if you build yourself a vacuum sealed c or h frame press/kiln welds can be done colder... in sure this is used in industry but not by your small shop... who will rely on making a hotter weldwith more time at temperature I am also informed by a blade specialist metallurgist that stainless takes on more carbon due to its alloy make up but I'm not a metallurgist ... but this matches with my long term experiences.
 

FoRdLaz

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Another mind blowing post Mynci! Would love to know what your background is?
 

philipj

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That makes good sense, thanks TB_London and Mynci! I guess that’s why everyone raves about the Takeda heat treat, to keep the properties of the core aogami super from (literally..) dissipating.
 

btbyrd

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Interesting to hear about this issue, especially with so much stainless clad AS coming to market recently. My big workhorses - gyuto, nakiri, and sujihiki - have super blue cores and stainless cladding. I assume Takeda and Anryu know what they're doing though.
 

SilverSwarfer

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Help please... I thought I’d use an existing relevant thread for this:

I bought one of the Super Yanagi Takeda 240mm in 2016. Super thin, super light, really frustrating user. The blade is so flexible I can’t effectively cut anything more than 1/4 distance from the choil.

It’s so fragile and flexible that in my first sharpening. I found the blade drifted to the right. By drifted, I mean it’s bent on a curve. It’s really easy to just bend it back straight again. Which seems ridiculous but could be tolerable if it was an extraordinary performer. But it’s not. I have used other sujihiki that are similarly thin and fragile but they flex back true instead of bending. I said sujihiki because this “yanagi” is really a sujihiki. Anyway, others perform similarly without significant flex.

I let one of our apprentices use this to cut rolls for a few months because he likes it and it performs great for that use. He gave it back to me sharp and clean. But the spine looks like the Blue Ridge Parkway.

Of course I’m exaggerating with that last comment. But this knife has issues. It’s not straight and it can’t stay straight. You can’t guide a slice with your off hand without flexing the blade, no matter how easily you apply lateral pressure in progressive cuts.

Any similar frustration out there? Is it possible I got a lead lemon or a poor heat treat? The cladding is ultra soft (evidence from sharpening). I wonder if the cladding is causing the bends?
 

labor of love

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That sucks. I had a takeda 240mm suji and I liked it a lot. That being said-yeah lot of takedas do feel like they can bend easily.
 

Corradobrit1

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Sounds like a HT issue. My Konosuke 240 and both TF 210 gyutos are reasonably thin along the spine yet have virtually no flex. Kono is mild steel san mai and the TFs stainless, all heat treated to 64-65HRC
 

lemeneid

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So which has a more crap grind and needs more work? TF or Takeda? Don’t own a Takeda but I’ve tried one and it was amazing to cut with. Just not my flavor as I tend to heavier knives.
 

madelinez

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I don't think it's worth trying to change the grind on a Takeda, either buy one and enjoy using it on the things it works well on, or just buy another knife. They're not a generalist knife, you could try and turn them into one but it's really not worth the effort considering cheaper better alternatives (and the fact you'll lose some of that amazing food release).
 

labor of love

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I don't think it's worth trying to change the grind on a Takeda, either buy one and enjoy using it on the things it works well on, or just buy another knife. They're not a generalist knife, you could try and turn them into one but it's really not worth the effort considering cheaper better alternatives (and the fact you'll lose some of that amazing food release).
Yep. Thinning a takeda is one thing-changing the grind is another. Even hardcore thinning of a worn out takeda sucks. Best to just get one with a grind you like and maintain the geometry as best you can.
 

Jville

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I don't think it's worth trying to change the grind on a Takeda, either buy one and enjoy using it on the things it works well on, or just buy another knife. They're not a generalist knife, you could try and turn them into one but it's really not worth the effort considering cheaper better alternatives (and the fact you'll lose some of that amazing food release).
I never understood the whole ultra thinking thing either. Why not just buy a straight up laser? I've really enjoyed the takedas I own and owned.
 

Jville

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Sounds like a HT issue. My Konosuke 240 and both TF 210 gyutos are reasonably thin along the spine yet have virtually no flex. Kono is mild steel san mai and the TFs stainless, all heat treated to 64-65HRC
This doesn't make sense to me about crediting it to heat treatment issue. Takeda is supposed to have a very nice version of AS, none of the ones I tried suggest less. The new kono fujis(not sure if that's the kono you are referring to) are somewhat thin knives, but are probably still thicker to than some takeda classics . The classics are supposed to be thinner. The NAS Takeda nakiri I had was nice and stiff. The NAS ones may generally be stiffer. Takeda tells you that the classics bend easy and that the NAS are hard to bend. In the case of a classic suji that long whispy blade may just be really flexy.
 

Noodle Soup

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This doesn't make sense to me about crediting it to heat treatment issue. Takeda is supposed to have a very nice version of AS, none of the ones I tried suggest less. The new kono fujis(not sure if that's the kono you are referring to) are somewhat thin knives, but are probably still thicker to than some takeda classics . The classics are supposed to be thinner. The NAS Takeda nakiri I had was nice and stiff. The NAS ones may generally be stiffer. Takeda tells you that the classics bend easy and that the NAS are hard to bend. In the case of a classic suji that long whispy blade may just be really flexy.
I've had to straighten my Takeda petty a number of times over the years. It doesn't take much lateral pressure to give it an angle. Bought from the maker at the Blade show in Atlanta maybe 15-20 years ago.
 

Noodle Soup

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I should probably add that I have never had any problems with his larger, wider blades bending.
 

SilverSwarfer

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I don't think it's worth trying to change the grind on a Takeda, either buy one and enjoy using it on the things it works well on, or just buy another knife. They're not a generalist knife, you could try and turn them into one but it's really not worth the effort considering cheaper better alternatives (and the fact you'll lose some of that amazing food release).
I appreciate this comment. It is absolutely reasonable and probably inevitable to find a knife many agree is excellent, but you find unusable.

I seriously doubt they would have stamped their marks on the blade if this knife was so far out of spec.

So the reality is that this just didn’t work out for me and I know more now.

Interesting to note that the Masakage Koishi 270mm sujihiki I bought last month is exactly the expected/acceptable stiffness. In contrast, this blade has a more discernible distal taper. It’s also AS core, and a joy to sharpen.
 

labor of love

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For what it’s worth you could always send your takeda back to the company for repair.
 

SilverSwarfer

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I may do that. In addition the pile of epoxy at the handle/tang has detached and half-chipped away.
 

milkbaby

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I think the biggest issue is (was?) the huge variation in the knives in profile/size, forged geometry, and bevel grind. I bet that flexy suji (double bevel yanagi) was forged out way thin.

The hardened core will have a higher yield point where it bends and takes a permanent set instead of springing back, but the softer cladding will take a set at lower limit. This is supposed to be a benefit of san mai, i.e. easier to straighten versus monosteel. Basically the core steel wants to spring back to whatever is the lowest stress shape but can be held in place by the bent (or straight depending on the case) cladding.
 
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