Tanaka ginsan nashiji gyuto or Kaeru kasumi sld gyuto

[Cookingphil]

Hi guys,

This is my first post after the initial introduction.
I am a professional chef and am looking to get a new workhorse gyuto for heavy everyday use.
After much research, the two I am trying to decide between are the tanaka ginsan 240mm from KnS and the Kaeru kasumi 240mm sld from JNS.
Has anybody used those knives and could give me some feedback?
I need something that is stainless and can take a bit of a beating, but hits that sweet spot between laser and workhorse as much as possible.
Grateful for any experiences and opinions.

 

[xsmx13]

I haven't used the Kaeru, but that newer Tanaka gunsam leans more in the direction of laser vs. The older wide bevels versions. I think it's a great knife for the price, but not a mid-weight in my opinion.

 

[Steampunk]

I can only attest to the Kaeru SLD, but I'll share what I can...

The grind and profile on these knives are beautiful for the price point. Something of the KS-style French profile, decent distal taper, and a fair grind that can be user-thinned without issue. Light for their size, but still a bit forward balanced. Not a laser, but not chunky, either. Overall, a very well judged combo for a knife that's actually going to see use...

My only complaint is the steel. I've used various HT's of SLD, and this is definitely not the best of them I've sharpened.

It's one of those steels that either takes a biting edge that doesn't shave at low grit, or takes a shaving edge that doesn't bite at high grit... It doesn't do both at once easily, like the best cutlery steels do... I've yet to find a sharpening method that can achieve this balance on the SLD Kaeru's, and I've tried a bunch.

If you're cool with a knife that you don't really take beyond 1-2K grit, that can hold a 'working' edge, and has really good geometry, this is it... This steel, at least with my copy, just falls on its face a bit when you polish it higher, and it's a bit tricky to deburr. It's not chippy or delicate, at least, but I don't like the way the edge feels even compared to other maker's SLD.

If the steel were HT'd different, or the core steel were something else, I think the geometry alone would make this thing an ace (Especially at this price.)... It feels like it would fit a pro kitchen in terms of geometry/toughness, but with a 'working' edge... Not that amazing feeling you get from carbon, or well treated semi-stainless/stainless steels that behave like it.

Hope this helps.

 

[Cookingphil]

I can only attest to the Kaeru SLD, but I'll share what I can...

The grind and profile on these knives are beautiful for the price point. Something of the KS-style French profile, decent distal taper, and a fair grind that can be user-thinned without issue. Light for their size, but still a bit forward balanced. Not a laser, but not chunky, either. Overall, a very well judged combo for a knife that's actually going to see use...

My only complaint is the steel. I've used various HT's of SLD, and this is definitely not the best of them I've sharpened.

It's one of those steels that either takes a biting edge that doesn't shave at low grit, or takes a shaving edge that doesn't bite at high grit... It doesn't do both at once easily, like the best cutlery steels do... I've yet to find a sharpening method that can achieve this balance on the SLD Kaeru's, and I've tried a bunch.

If you're cool with a knife that you don't really take beyond 1-2K grit, that can hold a 'working' edge, and has really good geometry, this is it... This steel, at least with my copy, just falls on its face a bit when you polish it higher, and it's a bit tricky to deburr. It's not chippy or delicate, at least, but I don't like the way the edge feels even compared to other maker's SLD.

If the steel were HT'd different, or the core steel were something else, I think the geometry alone would make this thing an ace (Especially at this price.)... It feels like it would fit a pro kitchen in terms of geometry/toughness, but with a 'working' edge... Not that amazing feeling you get from carbon, or well treated semi-stainless/stainless steels that behave like it.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, that's really helpful.
For reference, I'm using a Hitohira Futana ginsan migaki gyuto at the moment, but would like something with a bit more height.
I usually touch up my gyuto once or twice a week on a 2k chosera anyway, so I don't mind not taking it higher, but what you said about the edge gets me thinking.

 

[Up_dog128]

I've owned 2 of the Tanaka ginsans (both from KnS) and one of the Kaerus. I tend to prefer knives that cut very smoothly, which usually means either thin knives or thicker ones with an exceptional grind. The kaeru was a workhorse in my mind, and didn't move through product with the ease that I seek, but for that reason would likely hold up better to abuse than the Tanaka. I sold that Kaeru almost immediately, so didn't really get the chance to play with it on the stones or really test it out for edge retention. But other SLD knives I own have had better retention (in my limited experience) than ginsan. But there is something just kind of... idk, maybe glassy... about SLD.
The first Tanaka ginsan 240 I owned had a very thin, hollow grind, and it cut so smoothly. But this means that it would not stand up to any sort of abuse. It was also rather beautiful (ebony handle w/ blonde/marbled horn just looked so good with the nashiji). I would've kept that knife, but a dear friend really wanted to get it for his wife so I let it go. She chipped it in short order. The one I eventually got to replace it was the same in nearly every respect, but the grind was poorly executed. The hollow grind didn't reach far enough down to the edge, so it was consequently too thick behind the edge. There was also an over-grind in the belly, and a couple of cosmetic blemishes. I sent it back, and I was graciously refunded by KnS.
I'd just like to throw out there that although not stainless, SKD has a rather low reactivity, and can take a very sharp yet bitey edge with good retention, IME. I love that steel. I also like R2/SG2 alot, but based on the knives that you asked about, I suspect that might be beyond what your looking to spend.

 

[Cookingphil]

Tha

I've owned 2 of the Tanaka ginsans (both from KnS) and one of the Kaerus. I tend to prefer knives that cut very smoothly, which usually means either thin knives or thicker ones with an exceptional grind. The kaeru was a workhorse in my mind, and didn't move through product with the ease that I seek, but for that reason would likely hold up better to abuse than the Tanaka. I sold that Kaeru almost immediately, so didn't really get the chance to play with it on the stones or really test it out for edge retention. But other SLD knives I own have had better retention (in my limited experience) than ginsan. But there is something just kind of... idk, maybe glassy... about SLD.
The first Tanaka ginsan 240 I owned had a very thin, hollow grind, and it cut so smoothly. But this means that it would not stand up to any sort of abuse. It was also rather beautiful (ebony handle w/ blonde/marbled horn just looked so good with the nashiji). I would've kept that knife, but a dear friend really wanted to get it for his wife so I let it go. She chipped it in short order. The one I eventually got to replace it was the same in nearly every respect, but the grind was poorly executed. The hollow grind didn't reach far enough down to the edge, so it was consequently too thick behind the edge. There was also an over-grind in the belly, and a couple of cosmetic blemishes. I sent it back, and I was graciously refunded by KnS.
I'd just like to throw out there that although not stainless, SKD has a rather low reactivity, and can take a very sharp yet bitey edge with good retention, IME. I love that steel. I also like R2/SG2 alot, but based on the knives that you asked about, I suspect that might be beyond what your looking to spend.

Thanks for your detailed answer.
Could you name a couple that fit your description of smooth cutters that are on the thicker side? I might look into SKD as well, thanks

 

[mockit]

@itzjustchris1 gave me a ginsan recommendation recently:

https://carbonknifeco.com/products/hitohira-kikuchiyo-ren-silver-3-gyuto-240mm
A little pricier than the knives mentioned above, especially considering the sale prices. Bernal had it listed for under $300, but they are sold out. Might be worth looking into though. Bernal's specs were 234mm x 53mm @ 200g with a Ho wood handle. On paper that fits the midweight w/ a decent heel height criteria. I have not used it so will let others chime in. Carbon's specs are a little smaller so if you do go down that road it might be worth asking them if they have a slightly larger example. Looks and wish I could justify it personally at the moment!

Edit: Looking at a choil shot on Carbon the grind might be a little thinner than I thought but I will let others with more knowledge comment. Strong spine with good taper though!

 

[tostadas]

I've had 3 tanakas and probably 5 kaeru SS. I'll start off by saying I still have 1 SS for myself and gave one to my brother.

The tanaka is thinner ground, has minimal taper, and profile is good all-around. They also offer a tall neck area which I find comfortable. The grinds tend to be slightly hollow, but I dont think it's all that consistent. Spine and choil on the non-KnS ones are rough and feel cheap. The finish on the knives leaves the vertical grind marks, which personally I don't like.

The kaeru has a much more aggressive sanjo style taper with thick spine toward the handle. Profile is more like KS-style which has a steep angle from heel to tip, and a pretty pointy tip area. Heel heights are also maybe a few mm shorter than the Tanakas. The grinds are more workhorse, with the actual edge almost like a chisel. Spine and choil are also sharp, but overall I think the blade feels more robust. The finish on these is like a brushed longitudinal finish with some media blast or other cheap kasumi on the blade road.

In the end, I kept the kaeru because it feels like it can handle heavy abuse. I have plenty of other knives to use if I want higher fall thru product performance, so in that regard, the Tanaka felt kinda redundant to me.

 

[SwampDonkey]

I quite like my Tanaka ginsan, it's a good all-rounder profile with some curve but a flatter spot at the heel than truly curvy knives. Mine came from Cooks Edge and is noticeably larger than the 240 K&S version I just ordered for my best man as a gift. Mine is 246x55mm and the K&S is 239x51

My older one feels ~midweight, has a nice tall heel which I like, and takes a gorgeous edge on a chosera 3k. I definitely prefer Tanaka's ginsan to Yoshimi Kato's both sharpening and edge retention, and on that note I've been happy with edge retention.

Not a ton of distal taper, I wish the tip was a little thinner. It's great for big, dense things like butternut squash or sweet potatoes, the grind helps it move fluidly through that stuff and combats stiction issues that some other knives get in butternut. Stiff, confidence inspiring blade. Upon getting the K&S one out for pics, it has a much thinner tip which solves my biggest gripe, and is a bit curvier profile. I think the K&S choil is a touch misleading on edge thinness, likely due to James' rounding.

Mine is top, K&S bottom

Cook's Edge choil

K&S Choil

Cook's Edge tip

K&S Tip

Side x side, hard pic but you get it

Cook's Edge profile

K&S profile, curvier heel

K&S balance

Figured pics help inform better than words, hope this helps

 

[Cookingphil]

I quite like my Tanaka ginsan, it's a good all-rounder profile with some curve but a flatter spot at the heel than truly curvy knives. Mine came from Cooks Edge and is noticeably larger than the 240 K&S version I just ordered for my best man as a gift. Mine is 246x55mm and the K&S is 239x51

My older one feels ~midweight, has a nice tall heel which I like, and takes a gorgeous edge on a chosera 3k. I definitely prefer Tanaka's ginsan to Yoshimi Kato's both sharpening and edge retention, and on that note I've been happy with edge retention.

Not a ton of distal taper, I wish the tip was a little thinner. It's great for big, dense things like butternut squash or sweet potatoes, the grind helps it move fluidly through that stuff and combats stiction issues that some other knives get in butternut. Stiff, confidence inspiring blade. Upon getting the K&S one out for pics, it has a much thinner tip which solves my biggest gripe, and is a bit curvier profile. I think the K&S choil is a touch misleading on edge thinness, likely due to James' rounding.

Mine is top, K&S bottom

View attachment 243739

Cook's Edge choil
View attachment 243740

K&S Choil
View attachment 243741


Cook's Edge tip
View attachment 243742

K&S Tip
View attachment 243743

Side x side, hard pic but you get it
View attachment 243744

Cook's Edge profile
View attachment 243745

K&S profile, curvier heel

View attachment 243746

K&S balance
View attachment 243747


Figured pics help inform better than words, hope this helps

Wow, thank you so much for taking the time for this, really insightful. I think I'm leaning more towards the Tanaka but I will make sure to compare different vendors now

 

[henkle]

Can't go wrong with the Tanaka. I have a 240 ginsan. Very good cutter, but I'm not a pro cook.

 

[itzjustchris1]

@itzjustchris1 gave me a ginsan recommendation recently:

https://carbonknifeco.com/products/hitohira-kikuchiyo-ren-silver-3-gyuto-240mm
A little pricier than the knives mentioned above, especially considering the sale prices. Bernal had it listed for under $300, but they are sold out. Might be worth looking into though. Bernal's specs were 234mm x 53mm @ 200g with a Ho wood handle. On paper that fits the midweight w/ a decent heel height criteria. I have not used it so will let others chime in. Carbon's specs are a little smaller so if you do go down that road it might be worth asking them if they have a slightly larger example. Looks and wish I could justify it personally at the moment!

Edit: Looking at a choil shot on Carbon the grind might be a little thinner than I thought but I will let others with more knowledge comment. Strong spine with good taper though!

Kikuchiyo x Ren Ginsan get's thin behind the edge and it's almost as thin as my Kikuchiyo x Izo Ginsan. Love how this knife cuts. For it's price point this is one of the best under $320 Ginsan gyuto in my books. I have not used or owned any S. Tanaka Ginsan but i'll give his knife a shot one of these days since I love Ginsan steel.

 

[daveb]

I've had the Tanaka G gyuto in 210, 240 and 270. The 270 belly was too pronounced, almost German like. I liked the 210 and 240 as "good" knives that would do anything. The 240 had a little more belly than I like but would and have recommended it. 7/10. Would suit as a workhorse in pro environment. The 210 was the best of the bunch but too small for pro use.

Don't remember specifics of Kaeru SLD but have been down that road with a petty and gyuto. Neither resonated with me.

Suggest you consider Yoshikane in your choices. 9/10 for me. Can use all day in pro environment and it's still fun.

 

[Cliff]

I use the Kaeru as a travel knife, and it fits the bill well. My copy has responded well to Belgian Blue.