TF Nashiji - is it a good representation?

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My iron clad TF mori white 1 was very pleasant. Easiest steel I've sharpened, but slightly chippy.

Keep in mind...
With all TF, more so nashiji than mab and denka but still all TF - there is some variation in heat treat.

I've tried denka AS that deburred almost on its own, and denka AS that was eally challenging to deburr.
 
I don't understand this talk about TF heat treat variation.. this has not been my experience at all. Variation in grind, fit and finish, profile, weight.. sure. But not how the steel is treated and how it subsequently performs.

I own:
2 denka (with another 2 that have come and gone)
2 maboroshi (with another 2 that have come and gone)
1 nashiji (the only experience I have with the nashiji line)

I find TF heat treat to be very consistent. Both for his AS and white#1. I only have the one nashiji which does feel slightly more brittle than the maboroshi I have.

For what it's worth most of these knives used to be used in a pro setting. I now sharpen knives for a living, and feel like I have an "ok" grasp on how steels sharpen, feel on stones, and how the subsequent edge degrades during use.

YMMV..
 
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ModRQC said:
I thought the "in-house lamination" had been debunked a while ago on another thread, that both Nash and Mabs were prelaminates nowadays, and only Denka was done in house?
Click to expand...
I recently picked up one from the batch of custom Maboroshi 210mm gyuto that @JoBone has from TF. These Maboroshi have the same KU finish as on the TF Denka line. I could be wrong, but wouldn't that require in-house laminating on these Maboroshi?
 
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ModRQC said:
I thought the "in-house lamination" had been debunked a while ago on another thread, that both Nash and Mabs were prelaminates nowadays, and only Denka was done in house? Could be wrong.
Click to expand...

That was wrong.
Someone misunderstood Gaku's explanation and unfortunately presented it as fact...

The Maboroshi steel is still laminated in house. Same as the Denka.
Only the Nashiji is pre-laminated.
The core steel is now the same, but the manufacturing process is different.
This is what changed:
  • Hitachi used to make a version of Shirogami #1 called Type A, which has higher carbon to compensate for the loss of carbon during forging.
  • TF used Type A to forge the stock for the Maboroshi line.
  • The pre-laminated stock used to forge the Nashiji line is made from regular Shirogami #1
  • Hitachi stopped making the two versions and now only make Shirogami #1.
  • TF has mostly run out of Type A steel and now uses regular Shirogami #1 to forge the billets for the Maboroshi in house.
  • As such, the core steel is now the same, but the Maboroshi stock is still forged in house like the Denka.

I posted links to specs on both steels.
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/shirogami_1a.shtmlhttp://zknives.com/knives/steels/shirogami_1.shtml
 
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parbaked said:
That was wrong.
Someone misunderstood Gaku's explanation and unfortunately presented it as fact...

The Maboroshi steel is still laminated in house. Same as the Denka.
Only the Nashiji is pre-laminated.
The core steel is now the same, but the manufacturing process is different.
This is what changed:
  • Hitachi used to make a version of Shirogami #1 called Type A, which has higher carbon to compensate for the loss of carbon during forging.
  • TF used Type A to forge the stock for the Maboroshi line.
  • The pre-laminated stock used to forge the Nashiji line is made from regular Shirogami #1
  • Hitachi stopped making the two versions and now only make Shirogami #1.
  • TF has mostly run out of Type A steel and now uses regular Shirogami #1 to forge the billets for the Maboroshi in house.
  • As such, the core steel is now the same, but the Maboroshi stock is still forged in house like the Denka.

I posted links to specs on both steels.
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/shirogami_1a.shtmlhttp://zknives.com/knives/steels/shirogami_1.shtml
Click to expand...

Debunking debunk! Thanks I appreciate the updated information.
 
demcav said:
I recently picked up one from the batch of custom Maboroshi 210mm gyuto that @JoBone has from TF. These Maboroshi have the same KU finish as on the TF Denka line. I could be wrong, but wouldn't that require in-house laminating on these Maboroshi?
Click to expand...
Just fyi, these aren't maboroshi, they have the same core steel but are a custom order from TF.
 
Forgive my shoddy picture. One thing to note: this is actually the Fu-rin-ka-zan version of the TF nashiji petty. As mentioned on the JCK website, these are still proudly made by TF. Maybe part of my complaints are due to a difference between the TF house nashiji line and the FRKZ version? (I don't know if there are any differences, just trying to give TF nashiji the benefit of the doubt). Anyways, a very generous forum member sold me a mab that I've been able to try and there is a very big difference between the mab and the this line. The mab is much better so far. Anyways, here are my thoughts of the FRKZ W#1 petty 150mm after much testing:

- Honestly a chip monster. No matter what I did, still chipped.
- If I had to rate the edge retention on a scale of 1-10, it would be a 3. No matter my sharpening angle or the final grit, it barely lasted half a service.
- Fit and finish were fine.
- The first 20 minutes of use after sharpening are fantastic! Cuts really nicely. (I cut on a hi-soft, not pictured). Then the edge dies and I basically can only use it as a box cutter.

Honestly this has been one of the least good petties I've used. It has been relegated to my beater/house knife collection. The attached photo is just to show the chips after normal use. I use many thinner knives (for example: En, Kintaro, Gesshin Ittetsu single bevel petty) in a much rougher fashion and they don't chip like this knife. For anybody thinking about the FRKZ/TF nashiji line my personal recommendation is to stay away from it. There is much better available for the money. I would 100% pick up a Kikumori nihonko petty over the FRKZ W#1 nashiji any day of the week. It's cheaper, stays decently sharp longer, and handles waaay more abuse.
 

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Tall heel 180mm rosewood handle got it cheap
on bst. I two hand chop herbs, fresh ginger & garlic with it all the time never chipped, easy to touch up, never had to thin it to get rid of over grinds like with the Mab.

What the h$# do I know just a home cook these days that likes this little knife.
 
I'm just a fairly inexperienced home cook that usually does prep work for my wife - she's the real chef in the house unless it comes to smoking meat. I have two FKRZ number one petty's (TF Nashiji) and I probably use them more often than any other knife in my drawer. I've found them to be outstanding value for the money - cut well, hold a reasonable edge and sharpen easily. I don't regret buying them.
 
TF Nashiji is a good place to start. I initially got a red handled one from district cutlery and was impressed by it's performance. So much so that I ended up trying out a Mab and then setteling on the Denka.
 
Never tried the nashiji line but the Morihei Mab I tried was a bit chippy when with zero edge. I had to thicken the edge to 0.1 mm right above the edge from 0.05 mm to make it stable. 0.1 mm is still thin enough for good cutting feeling though. And that Morihei mab had better edge life than my Konosuke/Y. Tanaka white 1. It actually had better edge life than most if not all white steels I’ve tried including some honyakis. And it got super sharp in seconds. So I would say the heat treat is good in its own way.

With that being said, I still prefer blue steel or blue super over white steel for my home cook usage. If I really want to use something like white steel, I’d just use the shig Iwasaki steel which gets even sharper even easier than white IME.
 
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lemeneid said:
Sure have a go at it. Use a knife daily for 3 months straight, then leave it alone in a hot humid environment where it is susceptible to rust, pitting and degradation and after 6 months, take it out and try some test cuts with it, you’ll be surprised what 80-90% humidity 24/7 can do 🙃
Click to expand...

Ok I tried it because I was curious. I was actually surprised the other direction. My Watanabe has been stored in various moldy mildewed flood prone basements along the Eastern US coast for the past 18 months because I haven't needed it since the pandemic started. Before that it was chopping a few hundred kilos of produce a week nonstop for several months without a major sharpening. It has picked up quite a bit of rust and pitting in the meantime. Still tree tops hair. I'm not commenting on TF, haven't tried one, but I don't think basement exposure has much to do with edge retention.

 
stringer said:
Ok I tried it because I was curious. I was actually surprised the other direction. My Watanabe has been stored in various moldy mildewed flood prone basements along the Eastern US coast for the past 18 months because I haven't needed it since the pandemic started. Before that it was chopping a few hundred kilos of produce a week nonstop for several months without a major sharpening. It has picked up quite a bit of rust and pitting in the meantime. Still tree tops hair. I'm not commenting on TF, haven't tried one, but I don't think basement exposure has much to do with edge retention.

Click to expand...

Amazing. Just curious…how often did you touch up the Wat and what did you use to touch it up during the several months of use?
 
stringer said:
A couple of edge leading strokes on a View attachment 134210Naniwa Super Stone 2k
Click to expand...

That will do it touch up stones will refresh edge
So much better than using steels.

Carbon knives work best if used hours a day.
Not so good laying around better oil them.

Nice choice for a production blade. Watanabe also have pretty good edge retention.
 
Necro-ing this thread to give an update. Thanks to the generosity of some of the other forum members, I've gotten a chance to try both a Maboroshi and a Denka for a decent amount of time now.

I can report that they are both significantly better than my experience with the Nashiji line. While I do have my own personal preference for other makers, I can at least see why some people really like TF. I stand by my assessment that there is much better available at that price point than the nashiji petty though. To give my own answer to the question posed in the thread title: I personally believe that the nashiji line is NOT a good representation of the TF offerings. If you want to experience TF, then I think you can get a pretty decent experience out of the maboroshi or denka line. YMMV.
 
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