TF or Watanabe?

[nutmeg]

Watanabe petty 150mm is just THE ultimate petty.

 

[refcast]

Having owned a Fujiwara Teruyasu Denka and Maboroshi 270mm wa-gyuto and some others from him, and a Watanabe petty, I can offer my observations from my particular examples.

Watanabe
-My Watanabe came with a slightly concave left hand side about one third up the blade face and slightly convexed right hand side that made cutting precise and enjoyable in repetitive movements.
-My Watanabe felt more consistent in hand which helped me manage my cutting movements and adjusting the force depending on the produce.
-I would get an octagonal handle in the future as I like the facets in helping me rotate the knife.
-I don't know how his grinds are for gyuto, and I've read his kurouchi uses wide bevels and his kasumi uses asymmetry.

Maboroshi
-My Maboroshi's hammer finish, shoulders, and concavity on the wide bevel mean few foods stick, but the non-uniformity can make it feel unweildly in left-right balance.
-My Maboroshi had a shoulder that was thicker on the left side which aided in food separation and helped to prevent wedging by reducing surface area in contact. However, I did not like the slight left-right imbalance, which made the cut feel less predictable.
-My Maboroshi accelerated through the cut due to the aforementioned grind, which unsettled and exhilarated me. However, I would prefer if it were more predictable.
-Upon convexing and thinning the shoulders, my Maboroshi would stop a bit more in thicker items like dense cabbage but feel more predictable. I thought it was an okay trade-off, but I guess it was a more "pure" cutter before.
-In my particular example the behind the edge grind was extremely thin.
-Microbevels or bevels of reasonable toughness are really important for the steel.
-The steel would bite into crusty breads and seeds and nuts and actually cut clean through them. The blade would microchip of course. It could also very slightly bend and I could see the tiniest glints in hard light.
-The hammer finish section was slightly concave near the 1/3 at the heel and became fatter and convexish at the 1/3 nearing the tip. The effect made the knife feel more rigid with tip work and rock chopping.
-I would snug my finger into the finger rest while doing in hand work, which seemed to help a bit, but I think I prefer without it. The finger rest also affects the balance a bit and the choil view can look weird.
-I found I prefer no machi knives because I can lock my fingers around the top and bottom of the neck of the knife, which helps me with in hand work and during the retracting motion in cuts.

Comparison
-I felt Watanabe's steel was more tough and I felt more confident pushing it harder.
-I felt Maboroshi got sharper but the steel would bend. But the knife was ground extremely thin behind the edge, and thinner than the Watanabe by quite a bit.
-The Maboroshi bit into food more readily both due to thinness behind the edge and the steel possibly reaching a finer apex, which is at most my speculation.


If I had to choose between Watanabe and Fujiwara Teruyasu's Maboroshi no Meito for a 240mm, given your criteria of "uncompromising cutting power and performance with good food release", I would probably go with Watanabe.

In terms of cutting power, I would be able to rely on it harder. The Watanabe should be taller, too, which helps a lot with making cutting strokes shorter and a bit more chopping-like. I did like the Maboroshi 270mm more than my Watanabe 150mm, though, but knife size and handle play a role. I also just kept on making the bevel too thin on the Maboroshi because it was a bit addicting. They are different knives. But I currently prefer to use an Ashi Ginga White 2, which I got on a whim and found out I liked because it had a precise feel, and I'm trying Heiji's carbon soon to find steel similar to Fujiwara's but with a more consistent-feeling geometry, although its heavier.

 

[bennyprofane]

So I asked Watanabe about Toyama, this is what he replied:

“Toyama is a popular family name in Sanjo.
I know some Toyama-san.
Noborikoi Toyama-san is Shuji Toyama. I learn from him very much. He is who I respect the most.
Ken Toyama is from Watanabe blade tribe. His father was my great grand father's apprentice.
There were many great craftsmen here. I had many teachers. Iizuka, Hasegawa, Watanabe, Masui, Marushin, Kawamata, Toyama(polishing) and many. Some person already passed away."

 

[ashy2classy]

Watanabe petty 150mm is just THE ultimate petty.

I don't know, my Wat 165 petty is pretty killer. Some might say it's more like a really small gyuto, but I love the height for board work and a little extra length for comfort.

Wat 225mm gyuto and 165mm petty (just got a 240 to complete the family)

 

[HRC_64]

Nice really like the small gyuto/pretty hybrids anywhere from 165-195.

However, the main issue many people have re: Tip on wat
is in the 240s, with them being taller and the pro,
Wat petty doesn't have such a big height/tip.

Personally, I think each one needs to be
considered on its own merit,not draw
conclusions from one to the other.

BTW that Wat gyuto above looks awesome
Nice score !

 

[Hanmak17]

Selective awareness...

Valid point. I suspect this is do to incomplete information and assumptions.

Regardless of who is making Watanabes blades I have found his metallurgy to be the best of any knife I have had a chance to use to date. This includes the beloved Katos and Shigs everyone seems so fond of. I own several now and still prefer my Wats.

I should note I have only used his pro line of knives.

I have not tried a TF or Toyama, I suspect I'll buy a Toyama before to Long as they look like a knife I would enjoy.

 

[parbaked]

That 165mm Wat looks soooo useful...must resit emailing Shinichi...

 

[jacko9]

In addition to my T-F 150Petty and 240Gyuto, I have the Toyama 150Petty that is a much taller knife than the T-F petty (around 32mm tall). I would liken the Toyama Petty to a short Guyto.

 

[labor of love]

Thats why i wanted clarify and make it clear that Toyama Noborikoi Maker have never been teacher by Watanabe or have been taught by him.
Why knives is so similar i explained, Watanabe have many orders from Toyama Noborikoi Maker and other blacksmiths in Japan, as i have seen and many in Japan know

I still have a problem with this comment. If watanabe does some outsourcing there really isn’t any reason to bring it up.
All you had to say is that the Toyama brand you carry has never held a teacher/student or whatever relationship with watanabe knives.
Even if “many in Japan” know, you effectively defamed watanabe in the eyes of collector geeks here on the forum.
I hope in hindsight you’ll learn to speak less openly about competition. You wouldn’t want them to do the same to you would you?

 

[XooMG]

You wouldn’t want them to do the same to you would you?

I recall Takeda Shosui did just that a while back.

 

[Wdestate]

I still have a problem with this comment. If watanabe does some outsourcing there really isn’t any reason to bring it up.
All you had to say is that the Toyama brand you carry has never held a teacher/student or whatever relationship with watanabe knives.
Even if “many in Japan” know, you effectively defamed watanabe in the eyes of collector geeks here on the forum.
I hope in hindsight you’ll learn to speak less openly about competition. You wouldn’t want them to do the same to you would you?

Personally glad he chose to say something. Facts shouldn’t have to be tip toed around to protect “collector geeks” images of someone

 

[maxim]

I still have a problem with this comment. If watanabe does some outsourcing there really isn’t any reason to bring it up.
All you had to say is that the Toyama brand you carry has never held a teacher/student or whatever relationship with watanabe knives.
Even if “many in Japan” know, you effectively defamed watanabe in the eyes of collector geeks here on the forum.
I hope in hindsight you’ll learn to speak less openly about competition. You wouldn’t want them to do the same to you would you?

To be honest i regret now that i commented at all, it is pointless it seems.
But yes i would not mind if it was did same to me, if Shigefusa, Kato sold outsourcing knives to me and i said they only made them i will like to people will tell me that or corrected me if i wrong, specially for collectors sake

I recall Takeda Shosui did just that a while back.

nope, I don't know anything about it, we had only have disagreement about some Maruichi stones thats it, but still i am not super upset about it

 

[nutmeg]

I guess many comments and quotes have been made out of context, we will never know.. Anyway it shows are knife nuts how when it comes to their passion

Here is a new video from the pictures made during my visit in Watanabe's factory in August:

 

[swarth]

I guess many comments and quotes have been made out of context, we will never know.. Anyway it shows are knife nuts how when it comes to their passion

Here is a new video from the pictures made during my visit in Watanabe's factory in August:

I don't see anything being made in those slides...

 

[nonoyes]

Even if “many in Japan” know, you effectively defamed watanabe in the eyes of collector geeks here on the forum.

I am grateful for this information, not sure it is even remotely like defamation.

 

[labor of love]

To be honest i regret now that i commented at all, it is pointless it seems.
But yes i would not mind if it was did same to me, if Shigefusa, Kato sold outsourcing knives to me and i said they only made them i will like to people will tell me that or corrected me if i wrong, specially for collectors sake



nope, I don't know anything about it, we had only have disagreement about some Maruichi stones thats it, but still i am not super upset about it

Yes, I understand. But even revealing a fact like this can lead to more confusion. Watanabe could still do finish sharpening, grinding work and other things. Or maybe he just buys blanks.
Are you saying watanabe sells knives he himself doesn’t do any work on?
Are we talking like 1% of the stuff he carries is outsourced or most of it?
In this case a shred of facts only leads to speculation here that assumes the worst.

 

[nutmeg]

I don't see anything being made in those slides...

Made by Shinichi is the meaning of the kanji he engraves on his knives.

Rumors like „he doesn‘t make“, „he doesn’t produce“ etc. are only b*llsh*t.

 

[swarth]

You have proffered this as evidence that he indeed does make...but I don't see anything being made.

 

[nutmeg]

You have proffered this as evidence that he indeed does make...but I don't see anything being made.

ok.. actually I‘ve never seen any evidence or even a serious testifying about the fact he DOESN‘T produce so.. I‘m not sure of what we‘re talking about now.
These are just pictures about my visit at Watanabe’s place in Sanjo. I hope many people would discover things by watching it.

 

[labor of love]

To be honest i regret now that i commented at all, it is pointless it seems.
But yes i would not mind if it was did same to me, if Shigefusa, Kato sold outsourcing knives to me and i said they only made them i will like to people will tell me that or corrected me if i wrong, specially for collectors sake



nope, I don't know anything about it, we had only have disagreement about some Maruichi stones thats it, but still i am not super upset about it

I would like to see any written communication that watanabe has ever made that states he makes 100% of his knives himself. With his own two hands.
Yes, he states in emails things like “I will make your knife for you” in the same way a maker like Takeda would say the same thing. I’m not under the belief that these guys are doing all the work. That kinda output would be impossible for a single person.
But for you to say that he outsources work from other makers without elaborating comes off as disingenuous. Are we talking 5 knives, 500 knives or 5 million knives?

 

[swarth]

I would like to see any written communication that watanabe has ever made that states he makes 100% of his knives himself.

Moving the goal posts a bit it it seems.

 

[RDalman]

Just some food for thought:
What is honesty/transparency here. If you want/need to know more I think you should ask the makers/retailers maybe specific questions, before raising big stink online. A knife can be made in many ways. For example, if curious, ask if they laminate all their steel themselves.

Just because someone in a romantic marketing video is handforging-filing-manual stone sharpening knives, doesnt necessarily mean there are not grinders/powerhammers/buffers as part of the regular production.

A knife doesnt necessarily have to be forged, the steel can "just" be forged in the mill when made, and make just as good knives. The knife shape can be cut/ground/pressed(stamped) and no process excludes use of others. Forged production knives are often stamped for their profile.

Most japanese KU finish is made chemically I believe, not in forging/hardening..

List could go on... I think it's common many focus on just the end product they sell, and I think there are some confusion about how the knives sold are actually made. It's sad if that leads unhappy customers and good businesses get a bad rep, just because of lack of knowledge/poor communications.

 

[parbaked]

Watanabe Blades is a family business. Shin-ichi has other family members working for him.
The Watanabe website claims their knives are "original hand forged blades, painstaking crafted by the Watanabe family".
He implies that he makes the "Special" knives "I hand forge knives to your custom specifications".
He doesn't claim to make the Professional or Standard knives all by himself.
The Standard knives says "we make only the best knives for you and your family"

 

[Barmoley]

I think this one is causing such an uproar because of lack of information and statements in the past that Shinichi is one of the few people who laminates his own steel and even sells it to other makers in addition to forging his own knives. There have also been a lot of suggestions when comparing his knives to Toyama, to first get Toyama since he will retire soon, unlike Shinichi who is a relatively young guy. I mention all this to illustrate that most people on this forum thought that he fully makes his knives, as in forging, heat treating, etc. So when Maxim said that Watanabe knives are not made by him a lot of people got upset. This doesn't make Watanabe knives bad all of a sudden, they are still the same knives, but one of the implications is that if true, once Toyama retires Watanabe knives will change too.

I don't think Maxim was trying to do anything, but pass along information he has. After all Watanabe knives that are similar to Toyama are usually cheaper, so what purpose would be served by saying that they are also made by Toyama. Maxim doesn't benefit any from saying this.

Once again nothing changed in the world, but it is understandable why some people are upset, because they feel like they were duped. This is most likely due to misunderstanding, cultural differences and as correctly was pointed out the definition of what exactly it is to make a knife.

I am for more information, it is true that partial information can cause more confusion, but as a customer and a knife/research geek I want to know as much as possible. It is my decision if I still want to buy not knowing details or not knowing anything about the origin of the knife. I don't really care if Watanabe knives are made by someone else, but if this is known I want to know too, so that I can make the best buying decision for me.

 

[nutmeg]

Watanabe Blades is a family business. Shin-ichi has other family members working for him.
The Watanabe website claims their knives are "original hand forged blades, painstaking crafted by the Watanabe family".
He implies that he makes the "Special" knives "I hand forge knives to your custom specifications".
He doesn't claim to make the Professional or Standard knives all by himself.
The Standard knives says "we make only the best knives for you and your family"

His father has been retired for years and only his brother is a bit involved in Watanabe Blade.

 

[daddy yo yo]

Honestly, I don't give a sh*t who actually is/was involved in making my Watanabe knives. They are fantastic knives, no matter who and how many people were involved making them...

 

[parbaked]

Observations from someone who has visited Watanabe:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/threads/visit-with-shinichi-watanabe.33797/

 

[deleon]

Honestly, I don't give a sh*t who actually is/was involved in making my Watanabe knives. They are fantastic knives, no matter who and how many people were involved making them...

I have to agree, unless the cost justified it. That would be like asking a single descendant of Winchester to make a new rifle for you completely by themselves ..... could be done sure, but at what cost? Just look at US knife makers who do everything themselves and produce small amounts of product per year. They have to get astronomical prices, if they want to stay in a reasonable price range with a higher volume they can't keep up by themselves.

 

[Xenif]

#299 ... Everyone take out their whetstones ... Take a deep breath .... Lets do some sharpening, take a break, have a drink, pass the peace pipe, eat some bacon ....

 

[nonoyes]

What is honesty/transparency here. If you want/need to know more I think you should ask the makers/retailers maybe specific questions, before raising big stink online

Ok, we haven't actually learned anything about Watanabe in particular, but I don't think it's fair to ask novice buyers to inquire whether a knife that is implied to be hand-made by a master bladesmith is really made that way, and to please do so discretely.

Perhaps the problem is in the way these knives have been marketed to the west, idealizing the individual craftsmen and suppressing the re-seller aspect of some businesses. Brands with a famous blacksmith front and center should probably just be open about a) whether or not they also re-brand others' finished blades and b) the role of the master blacksmith in either hand-making the knives or ensuring training of assitants and quality of final product. They may be bemused that we care, but this is how the knives have been sold.

I made a crude assumption when someone said they had information that some Watanabe knives are rebranded oem knives, and the response to this by people who might know was basically, shhhh, we shouldn't talk about that. That's not proof that he re-labels, but it's weird. It has the feel of conspiracy and has left me less romantic about the whole master blacksmith thing and more cautious.

By almost all accounts just about every Wat that Wat sells is a fantastic knife, which is an amazing feat for a manufacturer + reseller. But I did not know about the reseller aspect of his business. Someone like me new to these knives does not at first realize the volumes of knives being sold or the implausibility of them being hand-made by the very people whose names are on them.

I don't think Maxim was trying to do anything, but pass along information he has. After all Watanabe knives that are similar to Toyama are usually cheaper, so what purpose would be served by saying that they are also made by Toyama. Maxim doesn't benefit any from saying this.

Yeah I kind of agree. I don't know Maksim but didn't like the impugning of his motives. Have no idea if he is right or wrong or is relaying privileged information.

That would be like asking a single descendant of Winchester to make a new rifle for you completely by themselves

But how many Winchester buyers believe that their guns are hand-made by a Mr. or Mrs. Winchester?