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TF or Watanabe?

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Corradobrit1

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Most of the low spots I've seen are higher up the blade road in the cladding. They're never going to be an issue for most users. Obviously if you want a nice even Kasumi finish they may pose a problem.

Can we see the rest of that knife. The handle looks really good.
 

daddy yo yo

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For the price for a Denka, I expect Togashi like quality, fit and finish. I really think there should be a knife tuning shop - like an auto-care center, where stock knives can be tuned to become performance machines. I guess that is what JKI does
For the price of a Denka I expect perfect quality, fit and finish. And above all, no need for further tuning.
 

Forty Ounce

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Most of the low spots I've seen are higher up the blade road in the cladding. They're never going to be an issue for most users. Obviously if you want a nice even Kasumi finish they may pose a problem.

Can we see the rest of that knife. The handle looks really good.
http://instagr.am/p/CDXnM6hjszN/ Handle pics are #3 and #4
 

Forty Ounce

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For the price of a Denka I expect perfect quality, fit and finish. And above all, no need for further tuning.
Knives are still tools.. they require maintenance. They will all require thinning after 3-4 sharpenings.. it makes sense to learn how to care for them properly, or find someone to do it for you. TF's are great knives, with lots of potential, but they aren't for everyone. If you want something that looks machine-made, buy a shun. You have no business buying handmade and expecting perfection.
 

daddy yo yo

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Knives are still tools.. they require maintenance. They will all require thinning after 3-4 sharpenings.. it makes sense to learn how to care for them properly, or find someone to do it for you. TF's are great knives, with lots of potential, but they aren't for everyone. If you want something that looks machine-made, buy a shun. You have no business buying handmade and expecting perfection.
Sorry, but that’s bs (except your comment that knives are tools)! Many others out there prove that handmade can be perfect - even for much less than the price of a Denka. And the poor q control and poor f&f has nothing to do with maintenance and really isn’t for everyone. It sure is not for me! Enough said!
 

Forty Ounce

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Sorry, but that’s bs! Many others out there prove that handmade can be perfect - even for much less than the price of a Denka. And the poor q control and poor f&f has nothing to do with maintenance and really isn’t for everyone. It sure is not for me! Enough said!
Not enough said. I think you're wrong. I can take almost any knife on the market and point out spots where they cut corners. It sounds to me like you don't have the "eye"
 

Alder26

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I've never used a denka, but I've purchase multiple TF's and the only way to get a good one out of the box is to buy a Morihei hisamoto w/ "fine finish". Every single one that I've ever had that had TF kanji on it has had some of the most absurd problems I've ever seen. Warped edges, low spots that extend most of the blade, one had a spine that was ground so roughly that it actually had an edge that I cut myself on, some of them are bent.

The steel is really good, but Watanabe steel is also really good and when you buy a Watanabe you get a real knife meant to be used for years. If you want to use a TF beyond the first 3-4 edges you put on it, often times your going to probably end up sinking 15+ hours into fixing a knife that cost more than a Wat to begin with.
 

Corradobrit1

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I've never used a denka, but I've purchase multiple TF's and only way to get a good one out of the box is to buy a Morihei hisamoto w/ "fine finish".
Then wouldn't be a Denka. The Morihei has W#1 core and a 210 'fine finish' I received was bent with a weird edge/board contact. The only sure way to get a 'good' one is go to the shop in person and find it. That said these issues are less of a problem from what I can see nowadays. They are paying more attention and addressing the issues.
 

zizirex

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Then wouldn't be a Denka. The Morihei has W#1 core and a 210 'fine finish' I received was bent with a weird edge/board contact. The only sure way to get a 'good' one is go to the shop in person and find it. That said these issues are less of a problem from what I can see nowadays. They are paying more attention and addressing the issues.
yes, this is on my next list. hopefully, I could get one before they increase the price.
 

Chicagohawkie

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I don't think so my T-F Nashiji is as good as W#1 gets - the rest of his line is just "chrome plated fluff". Perhaps a bit better edge retention but not worth the extra dollars in my opinion. Watanabe Pro KU Nakiri is great but his stainless clad blue#2 is nothing special.
100 percent right on the money!
 

RockyBasel

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I was thinking king of getting a TF denka, but reading this, I wonder if I should. After buying the Denka for say $900, I need a TF tuner, and perhaps I need a TF “whisperer” too to make sure it realizes its potential. On top of that, I may have to light incense.

Or I could get a Watanabe Pro Gyuto - only hesitation is that I have 4 Toyoma Gyuto- 240 and 270 dama blue and 240 and 270 stainless clad blue. Will a Watanabe add anything even if I do get one, given all the Toyomanabe watanayoma hype.

I almost gave into the TF denka curiosity, but then I need to hire an expert to finish the knife to make it what it should be. At the price you pay, that seems to be a hassle.

any TF whisperers out there?
 

Garm

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any TF whisperers out there?
Kojiro Watanabe is a pretty well know TF whisperer and manages to coax out pretty great levels of performance from these blades. ;) .
On a little more serious note, if you're looking for perfectly even blade roads for thinning, then TF's probably aren't for you.
They forge and grind their knives in a way that makes this more difficult, and in many cases you would have to alter the grind to even it out. On the other hand, you will more than likely find some attributes that will appeal to you enough to offset the way these knives are made and finished. These attributes are also the result of how the knives were made and finished.

If people only bought TF knives for the steel, and everything else was truly a crapshoot, they'd be out of business years ago at those prices. I'm also always left curious when people describe a "good one" and what they mean by that. The most entertaining, but also the most perplexing, use I've seen was when someone mentioned his TF gyuto as a "sh!t performer, and I got one of the actual good ones". I just can't make sense of it.
The term lottery is thrown around a lot in these parts of the web. As it stands I'm a six-time in a row winner, which is by my standards of course, and my list of priorities may differ greatly from other members. Warped edges I've only ever seen with other makers, and low spots are IME on par with lots of other makers with somewhat comparable grinds and blade geometries, but here the blade finishes can actually either obscure or highlight them.
 

Corradobrit1

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Warped edges I've only ever seen with other makers, and low spots are IME on par with lots of other makers with somewhat comparable grinds and blade geometries, but here the blade finishes can actually either obscure or highlight them.
So true. I've had knives with holes in the edge due to overgrinds, wonky handle installs, bent blades etc and these were on $500+ knives.
 

RockyBasel

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Kojiro Watanabe is a pretty well know TF whisperer and manages to coax out pretty great levels of performance from these blades. ;) .
On a little more serious note, if you're looking for perfectly even blade roads for thinning, then TF's probably aren't for you.
They forge and grind their knives in a way that makes this more difficult, and in many cases you would have to alter the grind to even it out. On the other hand, you will more than likely find some attributes that will appeal to you enough to offset the way these knives are made and finished. These attributes are also the result of how the knives were made and finished.

If people only bought TF knives for the steel, and everything else was truly a crapshoot, they'd be out of business years ago at those prices. I'm also always left curious when people describe a "good one" and what they mean by that. The most entertaining, but also the most perplexing, use I've seen was when someone mentioned his TF gyuto as a "sh!t performer, and I got one of the actual good ones". I just can't make sense of it.
The term lottery is thrown around a lot in these parts of the web. As it stands I'm a six-time in a row winner, which is by my standards of course, and my list of priorities may differ greatly from other members. Warped edges I've only ever seen with other makers, and low spots are IME on par with lots of other makers with somewhat comparable grinds and blade geometries, but here the blade finishes can actually either obscure or highlight them.
Thanks, most illuminating and I think you nailed it! Now I just need to get my confidence up to go out there and buy a Denka!
 

jacko9

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I have a T-F Nashiji and I know the difference between steels as far as edge retention. I think that if you have Toyama then a Watanabe Stainless Clad is the same knife as a lot of people here have mentioned over and over. If you want a solid performer take a look at a Konosuke Fujiyama blue steel. I have a b#2 210mm gyuto for a few years with a high bevel and a 240mm Gyuto b#2 FT grind. I know that the FT sharpener no longer does work for Konosuke but it is a great knife.
 

Alder26

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Then wouldn't be a Denka. The Morihei has W#1 core and a 210 'fine finish' I received was bent with a weird edge/board contact. The only sure way to get a 'good' one is go to the shop in person and find it. That said these issues are less of a problem from what I can see nowadays. They are paying more attention and addressing the issues.
Most definitely I didn’t mean to imply that the Morihei knives have the AS steel, just referring to TF generally. And yes the hisamoto can still have problems but they do address a lot of the mistakes in the grind.

No maker has perfect knives, but the kind of mistakes that TF let’s out of the shop take tons of work to correct and are hard to justify the price tag for some people. That being said if you get a decent one and do the work they can be really good.
 

Corradobrit1

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I think a lot of complaints are non issues. So long as the blades are straight, ground thin with no overgrinds affecting the edge you're good to go. Have them ease the spine and choil to remove roughness if a concern. And price is only outrageous for the 240+ sizes.

And TF is offering what they call the 'Nihonto finish'. Not sure what it costs but any advantage the fine finish Morihei offered (which by the way is no longer available) can be achieved inhouse.
 

Keith Sinclair

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Agree a lot of complaints are non issues.

Both TF bought off BST. Mab gyuto & little 180 Nashiji got as upgrade for wife's Takamura R2. Liked the rough nashjji tall heel 50mm. Has a dark wood octagon handle. As a home blade I use it a lot too chopping up fresh herbs, ginger & garlic. Both TF are thicker up top not super thin at bottom like my Tanaka from K&S. The older Tanaka's were way more rough Nashiji and not as thin behind the edge. This did not make them bad cutters.
You can get the TF white 1 extremely sharp and it's edge retention above average. Good little knife, can chop chop without worry stinkin sharp edge what more can you ask for.
 

Qapla'

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And TF is offering what they call the 'Nihonto finish'. Not sure what it costs but any advantage the fine finish Morihei offered (which by the way is no longer available) can be achieved inhouse.
What does that mean, though? A nihontô could be anything from a legendary art-piece to a to a mass-produced WW2-era item made of whatever railway-steel could be obtained.
 

Marek07

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Hi, Any idea on how reactive is TF Nashiji line is? I'm thinking about their petty? in humid weather is it gonna be problematic or once the patina is on, nothing to be worried?
To answer your question - while ignoring all else in this thread - the nashijis I own have very low reactivity compared to all other white #1/shirogami knives I've tried. As @jacko9 pointed out, they're stainless clad and hold up very well in a domestic kitchen.
 
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